D&D 5E Are Wizards really all that?

[DND_Reborn]

That’s a maximum. You are encumbered, and have reduced movement, far below that. It does not mean that a Str 8 character can casually sling 240 pounds over their shoulder, or can manipulate such an object as a free action.

Yes, it is the maximum, which was the point. With dimension door, all that was required is the weight of the corpse (an object) does not exceed how much you can carry. Even after that, shoving it into the room (assuming he arrived adjacent to the door) only requires him to move 5 feet, which would be his speed while at maximum drag, push, pull, lift, etc.

Or maybe you were describing several turns. It sounded like it was all one turn.

I would assume two turns, but one is possible if everything was basically set up for it: Grabbing the corpse would be an object interaction, and then Casting a Spell (Action), and then moving 5 feet to get it into the room (moving up to your speed).

But, if the caster had to move to get to the corpse, or the doorway to the room was more than 5 feet away from the target space of the dimension door, or something else it would be two turns, possibly more.

See above. The player wanted to both grab the unconscious warlock and take the dash action.

No issue. Grab warlock (free interaction), Dash action is your action. Done. No roll required IMO.

Of course, the DM can call for a check because in this instance you were fleeing and failure has serious consequences (an ally is left behind!). But that is entirely the DM's call. Some DMs might ask for a roll, others won't.

Also, anyone who has ever lifted weights for sport or pleasure knows that you don't always automatically hit your max. Some days it just isn't there.

VERY TRUE! However, 5E doesn't distinguish between attempts to hit your maximum and failure. If it is 15 x STR score or less in pounds, you can do it. FWIW, I'm not saying it is "right" or "wrong", its just the way it is.

So I think making folks roll athletics or whatever when operating at the top end of what their strength says they can do is perfectly reasonable.

Sure, I wouldn't debate a DM who did it if I was playing. Nor would I debate a DM who didn't.

 

[Neonchameleon]

I would say it goes deeper than that, to design conceits that stretch back to at least 3e, arguably even earlier.

The wizard is designed as a generalist that can also easily become good at a variety of things. Want good AoE? Grab Fireball. Want to scout? Find Familiar. Control? Web or Hypnotic Pattern.

While the wizard certainly can't have every possible situation covered, at 2 spells per level (1 prepped), after a few levels you have a pretty good variety at your disposal each day. And with a little forewarning, you can change up as necessary.

The fighter is also ostensibly designed as a generalist. However, they're constantly pushed to specialize. Fighting Style. Archetype. Feats. Sure, you COULD pick a variety to be middling good at a broad range of situations, but it's just not that good of an option when compared to the fighter who is great at one thing (like pole arms, or bows). Moreover, the specializations aren't all that different. It's mostly just different flavors of "I hit it". Essentially, the fighter is a "generalist" who can become good at one thing (and a fairly narrow thing at that). Their own particular flavor of "I hit it".

The fighter is designed as a specialist; the clue is in the name. They are a fighter at the expense of the other three pillars. And they are a fighter with weapons - which either means swinging a sharpened piece of metal hard and fast or shooting someone. And the pre-Tasha's fighters had almost nothing outside combat that couldn't be done as well by a commoner with the same stats and level.

Given the fighter is a specialist at fighting the question of course is "should they be the best at combat or should the archetype be reworked?"

 

[Bill Zebub]

Yes, it is the maximum, which was the point. With dimension door, all that was required is the weight of the corpse (an object) does not exceed how much you can carry. Even after that, shoving it into the room (assuming he arrived adjacent to the door) only requires him to move 5 feet, which would be his speed while at maximum drag, push, pull, lift, etc.

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I would assume two turns, but one is possible if everything was basically set up for it: Grabbing the corpse would be an object interaction, and then Casting a Spell (Action), and then moving 5 feet to get it into the room (moving up to your speed).

But, if the caster had to move to get to the corpse, or the doorway to the room was more than 5 feet away from the target space of the dimension door, or something else it would be two turns, possibly more.


No issue. Grab warlock (free interaction), Dash action is your action. Done. No roll required IMO

I think you're skipping a step with the "grab the corpse". It actually requires four object interactions: sheathe whatever you are holding, pick up corpse, drop corpse, shove corpse. And although the rules say you can pick up/shove/drag objects up to X pounds, it says nothing about whether that consumes actions/bonus actions/free actions/etc. Being able to grunt and slowly lift a 240 pound iron grating would still count as "lifting". I take this as a case of "we are leaving this a little vague for rulings not rules". (Kind of like the vague rule about jumping farther than your base distance.)

So, yes, it can be ruled either way.

The thing is, everybody is whining about how powerful the wizard is and how they can do anything, and here's a perfect example where a wizard could have bumped into one of their weaknesses. And what happened? The DM chose an interpretation that ignored that weakness.

So....yeah.

 

[FrozenNorth]

Attack 8 times in a round for two rounds. By 20th level with damage extras, I don't think I wizard can match that kind of single target damage.

20th level wizard true polymorphs into a marilith. In the following 2 rounds, attacks 7 times each, with the wizard’s familiar making the 8th attack each time.

Now the fighter’s turn. 11th level fighter. Just finished the dungeon, found the letter proving the vizier’s guilt. BUT the vizier is set to wed the princess in 24 hours, and the castle is 3 days’ away on horseback.

 

[Oofta]

I can't speak to Beowulf, but if you take the Pen Fight from Bourne Identity, the following actions occur which have no D&D equivalent:

• Grapples a weapon / limb to prevent the use of that weapon

Standard battlemaster maneuver.

• Damages the opponent while disarming them
• Puts the opponent into a chokehold, depriving them of oxygen

Uses their multiple attacks. Either has the brawler feat or is a monk (see below).

• • Escapes a grapple by damaging the grappling creature

Opposed grapple.

• Uses positional leverage to gain an advantage on opposed checks

Shove/knock prone

• Shoves and damages the opponent with the same attack
• Attacks when an opponent enters their reach with an unarmed strike
• Targets and disables a specific body part, preventing weapons from being wielded by it (or later, from it being used to walk)
• Knocks someone over furniture for additional damage
• Incapacitates a target via damage without having them restrained, unconscious, or dead

Knock unconscious with a melee attack is standard rule.

^All of the above is not present in D&D without DM adjudication or houserules, and that's a 90 second scene depicting a (from my understanding) fairly realistic fight between the real life equivalent of high level fighters. It's not some crazy anime kung fu stuff, it's just real stuff we as humans can do, which cannot currently be done in D&D by a 20th level fighter.

So, multiple rounds, maybe an action surge thrown in. Nothing here that using maneuvers either because the fighter is a battlemaster or is using Tasha's.

Personally I'd stat Bourne as a monk, not a fighter. But a brawler fighter battlemaster would also work. It's just a matter describing the fight cinematically.

 

[Reynard]

Now the fighter’s turn. 11th level fighter. Just finished the dungeon, found the letter proving the vizier’s guilt. BUT the vizier is set to wed the princess in 24 hours, and the castle is 3 days’ away on horseback.

Aren't they in the same party? Why would the fighter be responsible for transporting the letter back to the castle?

 

[Undrave]

The thing is, everybody is whining about how powerful the wizard is and how they can do anything, and here's a perfect example where a wizard could have bumped into one of their weaknesses. And what happened? The DM chose an interpretation that ignored that weakness.

Meh, in this case there was probably an ally who could have done it.

Also, dropping items is a free action.

 

[Fanaelialae]

The fighter is designed as a specialist; the clue is in the name. They are a fighter at the expense of the other three pillars. And they are a fighter with weapons - which either means swinging a sharpened piece of metal hard and fast or shooting someone. And the pre-Tasha's fighters had almost nothing outside combat that couldn't be done as well by a commoner with the same stats and level.

Given the fighter is a specialist at fighting the question of course is "should they be the best at combat or should the archetype be reworked?"

The wizard could have been designed the same way as the fighter, pushed by the design into focusing on a narrow range of spells. For example, in order to learn fireball, they first need to learn burning hands and then scorching ray. They'd be no less conceptually a wizard as a result.

The fighter could be a lot more than it is, without being one iota less of a fighter for it. Just for starters, manuverability. How can you call yourself a fighter if you can't even get to the fight any faster than the arthritic wizard? The typical strength fighter has a terrible selection of very short range weapons. There's a lot more to fighting than just swinging a weapon around repeatedly. 4e demonstrated that you can have a fighter that is highly tactical. I get that a lot of folks didn't like the particulars of the implementation, but it was a fantastic idea that could certainly be achieved using far less controversial mechanics. Babies & Bathwater...

 

[Yaarel]

It depends on how far the Fighter features have to go before they are deemed to "function well" along side 7th-9th level spells.

I've proposed features that IMO already do, but many times receive little response about them. For example, if a tier 4 STR 20 Fighter could lift over 4000 lb., run over 40 mph, and leap well over 100 feet, is that "enough"? If they could attack 12 times a round, is that "enough"? And so forth.

In some of the things people have posted related to Anime-style features, it is so incredibly over the top that it holds absolutely no appeal for me. Such things are not "D&D" to me.

Personally, I am satisfied the legend tier Fighter deals a satisfactory amount of damage.

The features probably need to focus on effects other than damage.

Super-strength seems archetypally appropriate, from Norse Thor to Marvel Thor. A temporary hulking out for 21+ giant strength works, mainly for the carrying capacity but Strength bonus to damage too.

Additionally, "subtle" spells, such as slot-9 Foresight (gain advantage / impose disadvantage) and Invulnerability (damage immunity!) might be appropriate.

Dont forget to make the appropriate sacrifices to swap in these powerful Wizard class features. Even so, they allow the Fighter to function at the level of slot-9 spells.

An acceptable way to magically empower a Fighter is to grant the Fighter a magic weapon or armor. It is easy to make a magic item part of the design space of the Fighter class. When the Fighter character levels, let the player pick which magic item one wants. The narrative can be awkward, how does the nonmagical Fighter acquire this magic item? The magic item might be bound to the fate of the Fighter, and appear when the Fighter is ready. The Fighter might be a kind of famous sword forger, who can imbue the weapon with a part of oneself, or magic the weapon by becoming one with it.

 

[GMforPowergamers]

I mean, I'm 99% sure it deals thunder damage so it is clearly a sonic attack. I'm not sure what kind of decibels it would take to "break" a hemp climbing rope, but I strongly suspect that at that intensity it would turn any organic matter in the vicinity into soup. If we're being realistic.

I am pretty sure any pure kinetic energy applied unerringly would cause internal bruising at least if not breaks... yet magic missile is 'only damage'