D&D 5E Are Wizards really all that?

[bert1001 fka bert1000]

There have only been 2 linebackers that have gotten the MVP since 1957. Yet I doubt anyone would say linebackers don't contribute. If you want to test the theory, go ahead and find a few and tell them they don't matter.

Some roles are flashier, doesn't mean other roles are extraneous.

This analogy is really getting murky as everyone seems to be making a different point with it now. And then answering their own version.

I don't think anyone is arguing that linebackers aren't important. Or that they need to be as "flashy" in exactly the same way as quarterbacks.

People are arguing 2 things:

1) in D&D, Wizards are superstar quarterbacks like Manning and Brady. If you want to play a linebacker (Fighter), though, D&D makes you play "can't remember his name system guy" that certainly contributes to the win but isn't a superstar. If you get to play Manning as a quarterback, why can't I play Lawerence Taylor or Ray Lewis as a linebacker? Why can't I be flashy in a different way as a linebacker? Where are my game changing sacks or forced fumbles or sending a guy off with a concussion?

and

2) D&D Wizards are flexible enough that not only are they superstar quarterbacks but especially at high level can also fill in for and in some circumstances exceed at linebacker, punter, wide receiver, etc. if they choose to. Fighters can only be linebackers.

Some people already believe you are playing Lawerence Taylor as a 5e Fighter alongside Manning but given the examples of mythic martials we have in fiction, I don't see how the current 5e fighter can be thought of as a 'superstar' in their category. The high level 5e Wizard is clearly a superstar in the fantasy magic user category with crazy amounts of variety, power, and usage at very little cost -- almost never seen in fiction except in the super hero genre like Dr. Strange.

 

[Maxperson]

The only role it can't fill simultaneously on the team is healer, a la a cleric who might use healing during combat, which as everyone knows is sub optimal... But since every character has the ability to heal with a short rest or heal everything on a long rest, its actually a rather unnecessary "role".

Heh. Without someone in that roll, my all caster party would have TPKd by now. They can't handle the damage output from creatures with CRs in their level range. Especially since they have lower armor classes for the most part and get hit a lot.

One to two members routinely get knocked out 1-3 times in a combat. Without someone in the healer roll, they wouldn't be getting back up to take more attacks and dish out more damage.

I've DM'd entire parties of spell casters, and they did perfectly well without any of the other "roles" present. That's either a bug or a feature, depending on your view. Its a bug in my mind. No niche protection, no clear role, everyone casts magic, everyone just as able to damage/absorb damage/remove social and exploration pillars/exit stage right quickly, etc. No real downside.

And, if you add in a level 2 (Oooh! A whole 300xps needed; the horror!) or so dip in fighter - extra HP, action surge, and second wind rolled in too...

300xp? Not even close. The only way for 2 fighter levels to be 300xp is if the wizard wasn't a wizard at all, but a fighter who multiclassed into wizard later on. The reality is that a caster adding in fighter, needs to have a 13 strength on top of the good int, con, and dex wizards need to stay alive. So now you are looking at charisma and wisdom as dump stats, which makes them vulnerable to all those juicy wisdom saves and makes them even more piss poor at social than they already are.

 

[Undrave]

But they lack the narrative power to wave their fingers and solve problems- they are limited to what a skill check can accomplish (which is highly variable from table to table).

They do get Reliable Talent later, which is a pretty good narrative power IMO and is probably closer to what Spells should do to skill.

6 attacks a turn! that's cheating!
Nope that's how Mandalorian's fight. A %&#$ ton of high accuracy pistol/wristwreapon shots while jetpacking backward.

Also, Mandalorians used slug throwers (i.e. standard projectile weapons) against the Jedi because if you try to deflect a bullet it turns into molten slag hitting your face.

The problem is designers/fans tend to want jedis to be unfairly broken. Then they cry when everyone plays a jedi

I blame the prequel. The original trilogy Jedi weren't as OP.

 

[TwoSix]

300xp? Not even close. The only way for 2 fighter levels to be 300xp is if the wizard wasn't a wizard at all, but a fighter who multiclassed into wizard later on. The reality is that a caster adding in fighter, needs to have a 13 strength on top of the good int, con, and dex wizards need to stay alive. So now you are looking at charisma and wisdom as dump stats, which makes them vulnerable to all those juicy wisdom saves and makes them even more piss poor at social than they already are.

You only need a 13 Dex to MC into fighter. It's Str 13 or Dex 13.

 

[Maxperson]

There have only been 2 linebackers that have gotten the MVP since 1957. Yet I doubt anyone would say linebackers don't contribute. If you want to test the theory, go ahead and find a few and tell them they don't matter.

A better idea is to find a QB and ask him if linebackers matter.

 

[bert1001 fka bert1000]

I have no idea really, because the issues of our "non-magical" classes have more to do with how they operate across the spectrum of combat/exploration/interaction/narrative power.

Exactly. If you don't change the class itself, if the level difference was enough, you would at best elevate the Fighter to actually being clearly best at contributing to winning combat, but what dynamic does that set up?

Most fights, the martials go in and kill everything? Spellcasters mostly stay out of it or use control and support spells? Spellcasters handle the out of combat?

 

[Minigiant]

The wizard being ultra-versatile wouldn't be a problem if the fighter and rogue weren't both bounded by bounded accuracy and the desire to simple for new players.

The Fighter with his 50' speed, 5 reactions, and AC 40 4 times/short restand the rogue with it's list of skill tricksand +15 to Stealth and this thread and many others wouldn't exist. No one care about the Wizard and its 9 schools of 50 wacky spells.

 

[Cadence]

A better idea is to find a QB and ask him if linebackers matter.

I wonder where the Aikman, Smith, and Irvin would have been without that offensive line. Talk about unsung heroes.

And, to digress one more time to the other side of the ball, has football been worth watching since the days of the Iron Curtain and the Doomsday Defense?

----

I wonder if a better analogy is basketball. There are some teams where there was a superstar - but they dished the ball and folks still remember everyone on the starting five (and maybe the 6th and 7thplayer) without too much work.

And there are others where there's only one or two players anyone thinks about, because the others didn't even get to shine in their role.

 

[Bill Zebub]

Some people already believe you are playing Lawerence Taylor as a 5e Fighter alongside Manning but given the examples of mythic martials we have in fiction, I don't see how the current 5e fighter can be thought of as a 'superstar' in their category. The high level 5e Wizard is clearly a superstar in the fantasy magic user category with crazy amounts of variety, power, and usage at very little cost -- almost never seen in fiction except in the super hero genre like Dr. Strange.

Gandalf?

 

[Maxperson]

I wonder where the Aikman, Smith, and Irvin would have been without that offensive line. Talk about unsung heroes.

Smith would have been a great RB, but not anywhere near what he is today. It took Smith two years to catch up to Barry Sanders after Sanders left the league. They came into the league in the same year and Sanders never had a great QB, good receivers or a good line. Other than the Rodney Pete years(he was good, but not great), it really was only Barry Sanders for the defenses to key on, and he still put up a 2000 yard season and was a top back in the league.

That's why I think he was the best ever. All of the other greats had other greats on the team to help divide the attention of the opposing defenses.

And, to digress one more time to the other side of the ball, has football been worth watching since the days of the Iron Curtain and the Doomsday Defense?

I'm still a fan, but there are multiple weeks in the season where I don't see a game because I have better stuff to do. The quality has gone downhill since players started earning multimillions of dollars a year.

I wonder if a better analogy is basketball. There are some teams where there was a superstar - but they dished the ball and folks still remember everyone on the starting five (and maybe the 6th and 7thplayer) without too much work.

Maybe, but the 1980's lakers with Kareem, Magic, Worthy, Green and Scott will always be my favorite. Lots of great talent.

And there are others where there's only one or two players anyone thinks about, because the others didn't even get to shine in their role.

Yeah.