D&D 5E Are Wizards really all that?

[James Gasik]

It's really hard to judge the value of a social expert, since what you can do with high Persuasion/Intimidate/etc. is really DM dependent, and some campaigns don't have you interacting with many NPC's you can influence anyways. This is generally why it defaults to one of the Charisma casters, since they likely have a decent bonus anyways.

Exploration is a little more concrete, since locked chests, hidden passages, tough climbs, vital jumps, and of course, noticing ambushes, are things that will come up in games. I've noted that DM's have a perverse love of putting characters at risk of falling, or worse, swimming (I'm also prone to this, and I'm not sure why, it just sort of happens).

I'd like to avoid Schrodinger's Rogue here- a lot of what makes the Rogue good is Expertise, but it's not like the Rogue can get Expertise in every useful skill- they get three from their class. So if you take, for example, Thieve's Tools, Stealth, and Perception, you're not going to get Persuasion, Athletics, Acrobatics, or Investigation.

The idea of what the Wizard can do is what I like to call potential power. There's no telling what spell a Wizard is going to have prepared at a given moment- they get a lot of them, but will your Wizard really have jump, or spider climb, or levitate on tap at any given moment?

It depends on how much information they have been given about what they will need on a given game day. But if you give them an opportunity to long rest, they can, like most spellcasters, completely reshape their spell loadout, and that has the possibility to trivialize some challenges.

Now granted, Wizards don't automatically know their full spell list, like a Cleric or Druid, but arcane spells tend to be more flexible, and this is where the narrative power of a Wizard comes from. Since it's not like they have pressing need to buy armor or weapons, most of the cash a Wizard gains will go towards either costly material components, or new spells added to their book.

But adding spells isn't cheap. During my year as an AL DM, I spent all of my bonus gold rewards for running adventures to fill my Wizard's spellbook- even though I prefer to specialize in a narrow spell list, I know there are problem solving spells that my parties will expect me to have access to, so I want to make sure to have as many as I can.

Sure, the Wizard can use spells like Fabricate to quickly arm villagers with weapons or armor, or turn an old keep into a fortress with Guards and Wards, but again, the question of "do they have the spell" and "do they have the spell without a long rest" are limiting factors.

For a Wizard player to consistently have solutions to problems is, again, dependent on the kind of game you're playing. If you run a lot of adventures with few long rests, the Wizard will be forced to focus on solving the most basic of problems- ie, combat. They will have to conserve their spell slots as well, and aren't likely to blow a Misty Step or Dimension Door on something trivial.

If you're running an open world hex crawl game, however, the Wizard will frequently be a source of surprise and wonder.

Thus, the answer to this thread is "maybe". However, don't let that fool you- under the right circumstance, the Wizard can get a lot more accomplished than other classes.

As for their role in combat, no, they aren't as amazing when it comes to damage as people who swing swords. But judging them by that metric isn't really understanding the Wizard's role. Sure, they can blast mooks quickly, or soften up large swathes of foes, making the job of the warrior easier.

However, they can also cut the threat of an encounter in half by hampering foes until the party is ready to deal with them. Sleep, Web, Glitterdust, Hypnotic Pattern, Sleet Storm, Slow, Stinking Cloud- spells like this can be incredibly potent in turning an encounter with lots of foes into a cakewalk.

The Wizard doesn't kill enemies as quickly as your friendly neighborhood cuisinart, but the difference between a party with a good Wizard and one without a Wizard at all is often quite dramatic.

And again, because it bears repeating, the potential to do something quite dramatic that other classes cannot do, is always on the table, to some degree.

I know a lot of DM's who, whether they intend to or not, create challenges that require magic to solve, and this is something, by the rules, some classes cannot do anything about. And when these appear, then, yes, the Wizard can be all that.

 

[FrozenNorth]

I don't own Citadel and Candlekeep I really haven't used yet. One of my players did buy me Hoard of the Dragon Queen and in that one the encounters are fast and furious.

They don't have to be back to back. You can have a few short rests in-between so the short rest classes are fine.

Since you have Candlekeep, check it out. From memory, I don’t think there is a single adventure that has 6-8 combat encounters. Same thing for Citadel.

So, WotC does not act like wizards are balanced around a 6-8 combat encounter day.

 

[FrozenNorth]

So, I wanted to comment on the social pillar and spells. The wizard, in my opinion, is okay but not exceptional at the social pillar.

Actually, the wizard is awesome at the social pillar. The error is thinking the social pillar is spamming Cha(Pers) and Cha(Decep) checks.

Lots of Int(His), Int(Rel) and Int(Arcana) to understand what people are talking about and ask the right questions. Lots of Int(investigation and Wis(Insight) checks to read people. Wizards are great of these, since a lot of them are Int based and many wizards also have good Wis.

Of course, let’s not ignore the other part of the social pillar: actually being able to communicate. The 18 Cha Rogue isn’t going to face very effectively if he doesn’t speak Giant. Tongues and Comprehend languages definitely give wizards a boost here.

Can other spells give wizards a boost in the social pillar? Prestidigitation is a good way to impress commoners. Detect thoughts is pretty good also, and doesn’t require a saving throw for surface thoughts.

Sure, the Rogue can have high Cha and expertise, but how often is information in the social pillar gated behind a DC 18 Cha roll? It seems to me that something like DC 13 or 14 is a lot more common, which is readily available with proficiency.

This is because of two factors. The first has been brought up before, that most social based spells are charms and mind control.

The most useful social-based spell is Enhance Ability, and it does mot have the mind control stigma. In a high level game, it is my choice for the “unlimited cast” wizard spell.

 

[Zubatcarteira]

Reminds me of a heist I did on a game a while, ago we were hired to defend a castle from some druids attacking, fought them off, but they cut our payment due to some poorly placed Fireballs. Everyone else left, but the two Wizards stayed, used invisible familiars and a Manifest Mind to find their treasure room, triangulated the distance, Dimension Door'd inside, grabbed everything (Goliath Wizard strength helped a lot) and teleported out.

 

[FrozenNorth]

Teleportation isn't just available via the teleport spell. There's misty step and dimension door as well.

Great combo: your familiar in rat form squeezes under the door into the next room. You use your action to see through your familiar’s eyes, then bonus action misty step through the locked door. If necessary, you can unlock it from the other side.

Then, you kick the cat that was going to eat your rat. The cat that “totally wasn’t there just to prevent the wizard from scouting with their familiar, it is only there because it is logical”.

 

[Oofta]

That's why I've constantly said stealth + invisibility. That combination has much more uses than just stealth.

With expertise, a high dex and reliable talent, the rogue is going to be far, far better at stealth.

Teleportation isn't just available via the teleport spell. There's misty step and dimension door as well.

The paladin I'm playing has misty step. It's nice, it's not game changing. At least not more game changing than things like action surge.

 

[FrozenNorth]

I see. I would think that the combination of shield, absorb elements, counterspell, dispel magic, polymorph would make the wizard just as survivable is not moreso vs traps.

The wizard’s killer app in surviving traps is purchasing a lot of incense before the dungeon and having their familiar trigger the trap instead. They can do this without spending slots.

 

[Zubatcarteira]

Unseen Servant with a stick is a good trap triggerer.

 

[Maxperson]

Sure that's avoiding the problem by avioding the mechanic.

That's playing the world like it's supposed to be played. If something is not in doubt, there is no roll. Quite literally nothing is being "avoided."

My point is how do you noncombat roles when the players actually want to do them? Now the wizard isn'tthe best face but they good social emergency buttons.

No. The are functional social emergency buttons. Making enemies and breaking laws is not good at social.

For the others, often NPCs will want to hear from more than one PC or even all of them. Often the NPCs won't and the face will talk. It's all situational.

Now how do you handle it if someone ants to be the Sage and another the Investigator and another the Utility when the wizard can handle all three roles very well in their backpocket upon hitting midlevels via divination, transmutations, and conjuration?

The wizard can be the sage or investigator in a limited manner with spells at mid level. A proficient PC or PC with expertise will be better at it than the wizard, though. Utility is where the wizard does well, but even then it depends on the wizard being lucky enough to have the right spell prepared at the right moment. Often the wizard doesn't and someone else has to step in, and if no one can, they make some sort of plan to try and get by the challenge.

You now have to tell the wizard not to prepare or research certain spells or at least tone it do for you Sherlock Fighter and Einstein Rogue.

I've never had to tell the wizard that or have it be an issue. The wizard can't prep the spells to be a sage AND the spells to be the investigator AND the spells to be the face AND the spells to be a bad face AND spells to be good at utility AND spells to be good in combat all at once and expect to be able to do well at any of them.

The wizard has to hope the sage spells will be useful in some situations, and hope that the investigator spells will be useful in some situations, and hope that the utility spells will be useful in some situations, and hope that the face spells will be useful at all, and hope that the combat spells don't come up against resistance or something that can save against them. Sometimes it works out, often it doesn't, which is as it should be. Different PCs shine at different times in different situations.

 

[Oofta]

Unseen Servant with a stick is a good trap triggerer.

So is a dog that you've trained to play fetch.

P.S. for the PETA folks I kid. Probably.