D&D 5E Are Wizards really all that?

[Shadowedeyes]

So, I wanted to comment on the social pillar and spells. The wizard, in my opinion, is okay but not exceptional at the social pillar. This is because of two factors. The first has been brought up before, that most social based spells are charms and mind control. Both of these things have to be used carefully, because the target will know what you did after the fact. Charm a merchant in town for better prices, and you probably should leave town immediately after. In the best case scenario, the merchant would bar you from visiting their shop again, and it's likely he'll mention it to everyone else in town too. Again, best case is that you are merely shunned, but it's possible the town guard might be stopping by for a visit.

The other issue is that spellcasting is generally pretty obvious. In a social situation, that would be off-putting, especially since the most likely reason for them casting said spell is to, you know, control your mind. In a lot of situations that could be a roll for initiative moment.

The Enchanter wizard can get around issue number one at 14th level, but the wizard themselves cannot easily get around issue 2 without the metamagic feat.

 

[Mort]

NPCs don't just talk to one person. That's not realistic.

People will often focus and speak to the person they perceive as "in charge." This tends to be the person with the biggest "presence" which in D&D means the person with the highest charisma. So it's not all that unrealistic.

Further one aspect of a high charisma/good social training (a high persuasion) is to be able to interject into a conversation without giving offense. So even IF not the one addressed, the high charisma/well trained character can interject and focus the social encounter. Again, not unrealistic at all.

 

[Maxperson]

People will often focus and speak to the person they perceive as "in charge." This tends to be the person with the biggest "presence" which in D&D means the person with the highest charisma. So it's not all that unrealistic.

Further one aspect of a high charisma/good social training (a high persuasion) is to be able to interject into a conversation without giving offense. So even IF not the one addressed, the high charisma/well trained character can interject and focus the social encounter. Again, not unrealistic at all.

I'm sorry, but if the king asks someone a question directly and someone else answers for that person, he's going to be offended regardless of that person's charisma. You don't interrupt a king when he's talking to someone and expect there not to be offense.

 

[Mort]

I'm sorry, but if the king asks someone a question directly and someone else answers for that person, he's going to be offended regardless of that person's charisma.

1. Hence the first part of my response of the one addressed being the one perceived to be in charge. Part of having the high charisma/presence is people naturally assuming you're the one to direct questions at.

You don't interrupt a king when he's talking to someone and expect there not to be offense.

2. And that's where training in persuasion + natural ability comes in. Maybe MOST people can't interrupt without offense, some absolutely can.

Now, in principle, I agree that the king or whoever, will want to deal with whoever he THINKS will best answer the question/be the most appropriate. But the point is, perception often trumps reality and that the people with huge "presence" are often the focus of that regardless of actual competence in the area sought.

Sometimes it's actually a real problem, with the more charismatic people being listened to vs. those with the actual expertise/good ideas.

 

[Maxperson]

1. Hence the first part of my response of the one addressed being the one perceived to be in charge. Part of having the high charisma/presence is people naturally assuming you're the one to direct questions at.

It often does not work that way. If there's an eye witness to something, you don't ask the guy who wasn't there. You ask the witness, even if he has a low charisma. A "face" can't change that. Some things are beyond charisma. Charisma only comes into play when the outcome is in doubt.

Will the high charisma person be selected more often than not? Sure. Will it always happen? No. Charisma isn't a god stat. It's just good. And a king is 1) used to getting his way, and 2) can't afford to look weak by letting some adventurer cut him off then he's not being spoken to.

2. And that's where training in persuasion + natural ability comes in. Maybe MOST people can't interrupt without offense, some absolutely can.

And many who think they can get executed for interrupting a king.

 

[Minigiant]

That's why there are no real party faces in my game. Will there be one or two charismatic people with good persuasion skills? Probably, but that doesn't matter. The king is not going to just talk to the party face. When he wants to know what the norther tribes will do, he's going to talk to the 9 charisma barbarian and the barbarian is the one that the king is going to expect to answer the question. NPCs don't just talk to one person. That's not realistic.

Sure that's avoiding the problem by avioding the mechanic.

My point is how do you noncombat roles when the players actually want to do them? Now the wizard isn'tthe best face but they good social emergency buttons.

Now how do you handle it if someone ants to be the Sage and another the Investigator and another the Utility when the wizard can handle all three roles very well in their backpocket upon hitting midlevels via divination, transmutations, and conjuration?

You now have to tell the wizard not to prepare or research certain spells or at least tone it do for you Sherlock Fighter and Einstein Rogue.

 

[Fanaelialae]

Battle Master is at 45. It was just 33 maneuver dice.

Contrasting the champion with any other fighter subclass is probably a mistake. It's designed to be the super simple fighter for people who just don't want to deal with a lot of class decisions. As such, it has decent/good baked in abilities that are constantly active. Increased critical, bonuses to athletics, etc. It's not designed to give options.

Comparing the Battle Master to the Eldritch Knight or the Psi Warrior is better.

There needs to be a champion. I've played with too many people who just want a simple no thinking fighter.

You act like 45 supports your position, but it actually illustrates mine. 45 vs 12.

It isn't a mistake; the comparison was intended for establishing a range. The Battlemaster is one of the best fighter subclasses, while Champion is one of the worst. The other subclasses will generally fall somewhere between the two.

I already covered the idea of the simple no thinking fighter in my post. Create a maneuver that just lets them deal big damage. That's all the person with the simple fighter needs to worry about. Anyone who can track the 12 uses of the Champion ought to be able handle having a small pool of bonus damage dice. It isn't complicated whatsoever, and if it somehow is, then the designers should build an effective and simple class like the 4e Slayer for those people, rather than crippling the fighter for their sake.

 

[FrogReaver]

In my experience, the only way to get past a guard is to be invisible is an edge case. How many times does a lone individual need to sneak past a guard? In addition, you still need to be stealthy. You can't automatically sneak past, many creatures rely primarily on senses other than sight to detect intruders. Even the lowly guard dog* that has advantage on perception for smell and hearing relies more on those abilities than sight.

That's why I've constantly said stealth + invisibility. That combination has much more uses than just stealth.

How many 7th spells do y'all have? Teleport seems like it's the big trump card showing how awesome wizards are. It's a spell you don't get until 13th level. You don’t get a second 7th level slot until 20th, although of course you can use an even higher spell slot. If you have a 13th level or higher wizard who has the spell prepared and a slot slot and is in an area that doesn't stop teleport (or an enemy caster wit counterspell), yes its useful.

Teleportation isn't just available via the teleport spell. There's misty step and dimension door as well.

 

[FrogReaver]

Evasion which helps the rogue survive many traps which would wreck a wizard doing the same exploration. Blind Sense to discover threats that the wizard won't know about until too late. Slippery Mind for certain traps or encounters while exploring. Elusive which also affects trap survival since traps make attack rolls. And that's just in the base class. Subclasses also give abilities that help.

I see. I would think that the combination of shield, absorb elements, counterspell, dispel magic, polymorph would make the wizard just as survivable is not moreso vs traps.

Picking locks will never fail unless there's a time limit of some sort. You can retry the checks and at level one with a 16 dex and proficiency, the rogue gets through up to a DC 25 pretty much automatically. With expertise and a 20 dex the rogue can get through any DC lock at all by level 5.

With retries the wizard will eventually get through up to a 22 DC as well. Retries benefit the Wizard more than the Rogue.

Tier 1 and 2 the wizard doesn't have enough slots to match the rogue. If he tries he's screwed in combat.

Tier 1 I agree.

Late tier 2 I think he has enough slots. At level 5 he has 4,3,3,2,1 slots and the ability to recover up to 5 levels worth of slots, which might look something like 9,3,3,2,1 or 5,5,3,2,1. Use the higher level slots mostly for combat encounters, use the lower level slots more for out of combat and defense. There's plenty of slots to go around.

Tier 3 and 4 and the rogue gets some nice abilities that I listed above that come into play. Wizards can do well, but they can't match or exceed a rogue's skill + rogue abilities.

IMO the defensive tools of a wizard are stronger than the defensive tools of a rogue. The spell capabilities of a tier 3/4 wizard + the wizard's skills will often outperform the rogue at the rogues traditional roles. We can go into a list there but I suspect you know most of them.

 

[FrogReaver]

So, I wanted to comment on the social pillar and spells. The wizard, in my opinion, is okay but not exceptional at the social pillar. This is because of two factors. The first has been brought up before, that most social based spells are charms and mind control. Both of these things have to be used carefully, because the target will know what you did after the fact. Charm a merchant in town for better prices, and you probably should leave town immediately after. In the best case scenario, the merchant would bar you from visiting their shop again, and it's likely he'll mention it to everyone else in town too. Again, best case is that you are merely shunned, but it's possible the town guard might be stopping by for a visit.

The other issue is that spellcasting is generally pretty obvious. In a social situation, that would be off-putting, especially since the most likely reason for them casting said spell is to, you know, control your mind. In a lot of situations that could be a roll for initiative moment.

The Enchanter wizard can get around issue number one at 14th level, but the wizard themselves cannot easily get around issue 2 without the metamagic feat.

Agreed. I don't believe wizards can meaningfully perform the face role. They have a couple of low level spells (charm person, suggestion) to help here but both have large drawbacks in social situations.