D&D 5E Are Wizards really all that?

[Maxperson]

Disregarding the cleric stuff, since I am not sure what that means, but for the rest I will give it a shot. You did not mention what level so I will just say level 8 (20 spells in book, 12 prepared). I bolded the leveled spells below.

Goblin Bladesinger - S8, D18, C10, I18, W10, Ch14
Urban Bounty Hunter Background.
Proficiencies: Persuasion, Stealth, Insight Investigation, Thieves Tools

The Fighter in Combat
Booming Blade (combined with extra attack from bladesinger and nimble escape from goblin)
Protection from evil and good
Shield
Haste or Cause Fear


The Rogue in exploration
Find Familiar (as ritual) - Bat or Hawk typically depending on situation
Arcane Eye
Knock
Find Traps
Gift of Alacrity
Disguise Self
Mage Hand
Minor Illusion

The Rogue in Stealth
Invisibility (combines well with nimble escape)
Darkness (combined with blindsight from bat above and nimble escape)


Rogue in Social
Friends
Minor Illusion
Find Familiar (as ritual) - Raven
Charm Monster
Suggestion
Disguise Self


That is without any feats. This could be done better with feats. Also I went with a melee build here for the fighter comparison, but you could do a ranged build too. In comparison to the Rogue - you have a Rogue doing exploration, stealth and social. A Rogue can be great at any of those but can't typically be great at all of those at the same time until very high levels.

That fails to even equal the rogue, let alone exceed him.

Combat
Protection from good and evil is highly situational and you aren't using it in any combat where you haste. You've also only listed 3 combat spells for 6-8 encounters, which means that you are going to suck in half or more of the combats, unless you use a lot of slots, in which case you are going to suck everywhere else. You only really have booming blade.

Exploration
Arcane eye is useful very short term. Are you only exploring for 1 hour of the day? You can't cast any extra spells since you've used up all 12.
Knock - You have no silence, so knock is rather crappy and only opens 1 door. There are often multiple locked doors in a single room and the rogue can easily get them all. Unless you are planning on using a half dozen or more slots just on a very, very loud knock spell during the exploration portion of the adventuring day, in which case you are losing combat ability.
Find traps finds them, but is instantaneous, which means you are wasting a lot of slots finding nothing unless you get very luck or already know the trap is there. You also don't know exactly where it is or how it's set off, and it doesn't disarm it for you. This is crappier than a rogue, but better than nothing I guess.
Gift of Alacrity is a combat spell, so it shouldn't be in this section. I'm also not sure you can pick it outside of that setting.
Disguise Self is social, not exploration, but is decently good for a short amount of the adventuring day.

Stealth
Invisibility is good, but you aren't using it while you explore because you are concentrating on Arcane Eye, which has eaten up all of your 4th level slots for just a few hours of exploration. The rogue stealths all day long.
Darkness is more of a combat spell, but can be used for stealth sometimes. It's also going to end those Arcane Eyes you keep having to cast.

Social
Charm Monster is combat, not social, since you will be in combat because of it and it won't actually get the monster to do much for you. It's a monster and likely does not understand you or is likely not smart enough to do what you want. It's primarily a combat control spell. In those situations that are actually social, it's going to be an enemy that might be coming for you after that hour is up. You also can't cast it because of those pesky Arcane Eyes that you have cast. Also, the rogue can do the same thing with a good persuasion roll and without the monster coming after you in an hour.
Suggestion is useful, but you're using up more an more combat spells. Your lower level slots are not going to be sufficient for all the shield spells you will need on the front lines and you don't have enough higher level slots due to Arcane Eye, Charm Monster, Suggestion and Haste.

In short, you've created a wizard trying hard to be a very subpar rogue.

 

[Maxperson]

@Minigiant is still in the thread. I will let him clarify what he meant, but I suspect that my interpretation of his post is more accurate than yours.

The difference is that you are only one who is interpreting. I'm simply going by what he said.

As far as I’ve seen, @Cruentus isn’t participating in the thread any more. Clearly, you and I interpret his post differently. As I said, the more realistic interpretation of @Cruentus ’s post is that a party of wizards will outclass a party of non-spellcasters.

Again, this is you inventing stuff on his behalf. I have his two direct statement saying wizards can do all roles simultaneously. You interpret, I use what they said, which requires no interpretation.

Here’s the thing. If it is possible to interpret a poster’s comment in two ways, one of which is ridiculous, « a single wizard can replace three other party members simultaneously », why would you continuously refute the ridiculous interpretation rather than the non-ridiculous interpretation?

I'm not interpreting. I'm using what they said in clear, direct English. You are interpreting, because you have to find meaning that contradicts what they clearly said.

 

[ECMO3]

That fails to even equal the rogue, let alone exceed him.

Combat
Protection from good and evil is highly situational and you aren't using it in any combat where you haste. You've also only listed 3 combat spells for 6-8 encounters, which means that you are going to suck in half or more of the combats, unless you use a lot of slots, in which case you are going to suck everywhere else. You only really have booming blade.

Sure but I have more than 3 spell slots and a bladesinger does not suck at all even if not casting leveled spells regularly.

Booming Blade extra attach with nimble escape alone puts me above the fighter baseline in DPR without casting anything else.

Exploration
Arcane eye is useful very short term. Are you only exploring for 1 hour of the day?

Arcane Eye can move 30 feet and surveil up to 900 square feet every 6 seconds. That means in an hour it could move 3 miles and look at up to 540,000 square feet of area. That is going to be larger than just about any entire dungeon.

A bigger problem than the 1-hour limit is the 1-inch gap limit.

You can't cast any extra spells since you've used up all 12.

I can get up to 4 more back with Arcane Recovery, but I don'tneed to cast them all.

Knock - You have no silence, so knock is rather crappy and only opens 1 door. There are often multiple locked doors in a single room and the rogue can easily get them all.
Unless you are planning on using a half dozen or more slots just on a very, very loud knock spell during the exploration portion of the adventuring day, in which case you are losing combat ability.

I have both knock AND thieves tool proficiency. I can do what the Rogue does and then cast knock if/when I fail .... if it makes sense.

Find traps finds them, but is instantaneous, which means you are wasting a lot of slots finding nothing unless you get very luck or already know the trap is there. You also don't know exactly where it is or how it's set off, and it doesn't disarm it for you. This is crappier than a rogue, but better than nothing I guess.

Again Find Traps AND Thieves tool proficiency.

Gift of Alacrity is a combat spell, so it shouldn't be in this section. I'm also not sure you can pick it outside of that setting.

It is an initiative boost, which helps in combat, but also is a huge boost in exploration and scouting because it puts you higher in the initiative order if you are discovered allowing you to escape easier and this is important when you are scouting or exploring alone.

Disguise Self is social, not exploration, but is decently good for a short amount of the adventuring day.

No disguise self is both.

Disguise yourself as the Orc you just killed and walk around the stronghold getting the lay of the land. Again you say "short amount of time", but I can move 30 feet every 6 seconds or over 3 miles before this spell runs out.

I need to tallk more about the 1-hour time limit, I need to point out that most adventuring days you do not spend 16 hours fighting, exploring and talking. You spend most of the day doing two things - traveling long distances overland and resting. Everything else you do during the day combined takes minutes.

I realize a lot of DMs deviate from RAW here. But lets for example say in one day I explore a dungeon with 50 rooms. 10 of those rooms have combats each lasting 5 rounds. Then I search each room and in each one of those rooms I also unlock 2 different chests after disarming a trap on each one of those 2 chests.

At the end of that you have 10 fights and 50 rounds in combat, have untrapped 100 chests, unlocked 100 chests, and made 50 different searches. That is WAY, WAY more than a normal full adventuring day worth of "stuff", more combats, more chests, more traps, and the entire time I spent doing ALL of that is 1800 seconds or a TOTAL of 30 minutes! If you assume this is a HUGE dungeon and there is 120 feet of hallway between each of those 50 rooms and you add in walking time you are still under an hour total adventuring time .... to recap that is a mile long dungeon with 10 fights, 100 traps, 100 chests being open, and searches in every single room and I am still under 1 hour of adventuring time to clear ALL of it. Add in 2 short rests and I am under 3 hours and 3 disguise self spells to be disguised the entire time I am adventuring.

If I used Arcane Eye to scout the entire dungeoun before I cast my first disguise self and went in, it would have completed the task in 20 minutes, went to every single room and saw every single monster. This is HUGE dungeon a mile long and RAW is 20 minutes for Arcane Eye to go through it completely.

Stealth
Invisibility is good, but you aren't using it while you explore because you are concentrating on Arcane Eye, which has eaten up all of your 4th level slots for just a few hours of exploration. The rogue stealths all day long.

Arcane Eye provides enough exploration time to fully and completely explore any 5E dungeon published by WOTC, the 1-inch gap limit notwithstanding.

Further these are options. Obviously you can't concentrate on 2 things at the same time, but stealth and exploration are not the same thing.

Social
Charm Monster is combat, not social, since you will be in combat because of it and it won't actually get the monster to do much for you. It's a monster and likely does not understand you or is likely not smart enough to do what you want. It's primarily a combat control spell. In those situations that are actually social, it's going to be an enemy that might be coming for you after that hour is up. You also can't cast it because of those pesky Arcane Eyes that you have cast. Also, the rogue can do the same thing with a good persuasion roll and without the monster coming after you in an hour.
Suggestion is useful, but you're using up more an more combat spells. Your lower level slots are not going to be sufficient for all the shield spells you will need on the front lines and you don't have enough higher level slots due to Arcane Eye, Charm Monster, Suggestion and Haste.

I am also sporting a +2 Charisma and both insight and Persuasion proficiency. Unless the Rogue took expertise here he is behind me considering the spells and cantrips I have. If he did take expertise, then he is behind me elsewhere.

I will also add that Charm Monster is not usually used in combat as the target has advantage if you are fighting it. Also, charm monster works on any creature, not just beasts, so there is a very good chance he can understand you and a 100% chance if you are using it in a social situation (because you would not use it otherwise). The charmed conditions gives advantage on social checks, it is written in the rules that you are better at social skills while it is active. You might be worse later in the day against the same enemy after it wears off, but that is not when you would be using it or making those checks. Finally, you can be 6 miles away from it before it wears off

In short, you've created a wizard trying hard to be a very subpar rogue.

As I said in my original post the Rogue can probably beat me in any single area, but he can't beat me in all of them.

For example the Rogue can get expertise in Persuasion and insight and he will be better than me in Social skills, even with the spells above, but he will be behind me in opening locks/finding traps and behind me in stealth and behind me in exploration.

Alternatively, he can take expertise in thieves tools and do that better than me there, but then he is behind me in exploration and behind me in social.

 

[Maxperson]

Sure but I have more than 3 spell slots and a bladesinger does not suck at all even if not casting leveled spells regularly.

Booming Blade extra attach with nimble escape alone puts me above the fighter baseline in DPR without casting anything else.

What if the target doesn't have to move to hurt you, like a great many don't? What if you miss, like you often will?

Arcane Eye can move 30 feet and surveil up to 900 square feet every 6 seconds. That means in an hour it could move 3 miles and look at up to 540,000 square feet of area. That is going to be larger than just about any entire dungeon.

A bigger problem than the 1-hour limit is the 1-inch gap limit.

Concentration is the biggest problem, especially with all those concentration spells on your sheet that you are using to be better than the rogue. The gap is also a problem. As is the fact that you cannot surveil 900 square feet every six second and do anything more than a super crappy job at exploration. You are literally overlooking almost everything in your hurry to go places. You will miss a great deal of details that the rogue will not. The eye can look in every direction, but not simultaneously.

I can get up to 4 more back with Arcane Recovery, but I don'tneed to cast them all.

Yep. I added that into my mental calculations. You simply do not have enough slots to be more than crappy at everything, including combat. If you want to be good at any one thing, you will be super crappy at the rest.

I have both knock AND thieves tool proficiency. I can do what the Rogue does and then cast knock if/when I fail .... if it makes sense.

How is that going to save you from the hordes of monsters that come and overwhelm you and the group because of the loud noise knock creates? It's loud enough to bring multiple encounters at once.

Again Find Traps AND Thieves tool proficiency.

Again, the rogue is a lot better than you at it. 4 skills with expertise by that level. And a higher dex.

It is an initiative boost, which helps in combat, but also is a huge boost in exploration and scouting because it puts you higher in the initiative order if you are discovered allowing you to escape easier and this is important when you are scouting or exploring alone.

It's 100% a combat spell. You cannot call encounters part of exploration. Combat is a separate pillar, not part of the exploration pillar.

Disguise yourself as the Orc you just killed and walk around the stronghold getting the lay of the land. Again you say "short amount of time", but I can move 30 feet every 6 seconds or over 3 miles before this spell runs out.

I don't care how much you can more in 6 seconds or an hour. You have 24 hours in an adventuring day. 1 hour is 1/24th of the time you need the spell for.

I need to tallk more about the 1-hour time limit, I need to point out that most adventuring days you do not spend 16 hours fighting, exploring and talking. You spend most of the day doing two things - traveling long distances overland and resting. Everything else you do during the day combined takes minutes.

10 minutes spread out over 24 hours. Not all in the hour that you have your spell up. It seems that I understand the 1 hour limit better than you do.

I realize a lot of DMs deviate from RAW here. But lets for example say in one day I have 10 combats in 10 different rooms, each lasting 5 rounds. Then I search each room 5 times (making sure I did not miss anything) and in each one of those rooms I also unlock 10 different chests after disarming a trap on each one of those 10 chests.

It's not deviating from RAW to not give you all of the encounters conveniently during your 1 hour spell.

Arcane Eye provides enough exploration time to fully and completely explore any 5E dungeon published by WOTC, the 1-inch gap limit notwithstanding.

It does withstand, though. As do interruptions during that hour. What you are arguing is like me saying that the rogue can explore the whole dungeon in an hour, not withstanding closed doors, traps and enemies.

Further these are options. Obviously you can't concentrate on 2 things at the same time, but stealth and exploration are not the same thing.

Sure, but 99% of the time they happen simultaneously with exploration or combat, two pillars that you are using concentration spells in.

I will also add that Charm Monster is not usually used in combat as the target has advantage if you are fighting it. Also, charm monster works on any creature, not just beasts, so there is a very good chance he can understand you and a 100% chance if you are using it in a social situation (because you would not use it otherwise). The charmed conditions gives advantage on social checks, it is written in the rules that you are better at social skills while it is active. You might be worse later in the day against the same enemy after it wears off, but that is not when you would be using it or making those checks. Finally, you can be 6 miles away from it before it wears off

Many monsters don't speak common and you will often not have their language handy. Social includes gestures in those situations, and good luck using gestures to get that spell to work.

As I said in my original post the Rogue can probably beat me in any single area, but he can't beat me in all of them.

He can if you are trying all of them, or even two of them. You can only possibly match him in an out of combat area if you focus nearly all of your slots there. Anything less and you come out behind. Or have a very generous DM who lets your arcane eye competently search out all the information a rogue can get while traveling full speed and adds in the extra ability for your eye to see in all directions simultaneously. If the DM follows RAW, that won't happen.

For example the Rogue can get expertise in Persuasion and insight and he will be better than me in Social skills, even with the spells above, but he will be behind me in opening locks/finding traps and behind me in stealth and behind me in exploration.

By 8th level(the level you chose for your wizard) he can have expertise Persuasion, Insight, Stealth and Thieves' Tools. Further, he has cunning action to allow him to do things better than your wizard, and uncanny dodge and evasion for combat/exploration. Plus any subclass abilities that would help. Your bladesinger abilities aren't geared for stealth and exploration like a rogue's.

 

[ECMO3]

What if the target doesn't have to move to hurt you, like a great many don't? What if you miss, like you often will?

Fighters miss as well, probably more than this character as she can hide as a bonus action and potentially get advantage on one of her attacks

Concentration is the biggest problem, especially with all those concentration spells on your sheet that you are using to be better than the rogue. The gap is also a problem. As is the fact that you cannot surveil 900 square feet every six second and do anything more than a super crappy job at exploration. You are literally overlooking almost everything in your hurry to go places. You will miss a great deal of details that the rogue will not. The eye can look in every direction, but not simultaneously.

An Arcane Eye moves the same speed as a Rogue (faster if the Rogue is a halfling or Dwarf).

Even if you houserule this and say it can only move 5 feet per turn there is still PLENTY of time to explore any WOTC published dungeoun you are going to complete in a day, plenty of time, it is not even close

How is that going to save you from the hordes of monsters that come and overwhelm you and the group because of the loud noise knock creates? It's loud enough to bring multiple encounters at once.

As noted earlier I have thieves tool proficiency, I can resort to knock if I fail and it makes sense. This makes mee better than the Rogue

Again, the rogue is a lot better than you at it. 4 skills with expertise by that level. And a higher dex.

A dex difference that is going to matter on one trap out of 20 and if he has thieves tools expertise then he only has expertise in 3 skills.

I don't care how much you can more in 6 seconds or an hour. You have 24 hours in an adventuring day. 1 hour is 1/24th of the time you need the spell for.

Please tell me what you spend time doing in this 24-hour day. Go through it for me.

10 minutes spread out over 24 hours. Not all in the hour that you have your spell up. It seems that I understand the 1 hour limit better than you do.

The DM does not decide when and where the party goes.

Do you think I am going to say - "Ok guys we cleared this room in 45 seconds, I have 59 minutes left on my spell, so let's wait until it is expired before we go to the next room"

It's not deviating from RAW to not give you all of the encounters conveniently during your 1 hour spell.

Sure if you have encounters while we are at camp or resting, in which case the exploration and stealth pillars are meaningless and most of this discussion is irrelevant.

The DM does not decide the timing on when we explore and when we rest etc. We cast the spell and we do everything we need to do between now and our next short rest and we complete it in minutes. Then we rest and cast it again, then we rest and cast it again. Then the adventuring day is over and we either leave or wait around (i.e. camp) for another 13 or so hours until we can start another long rest. Sure the DM can give us more encounters then, but he is going to go well past the 8 encounters per day to do that.

This is not always the case, especially on wilderness adventures, but on those you are not doing a normal "adventuring day" worth of encounters and you are typically not short on slots at all

It does withstand, though. As do interruptions during that hour. What you are arguing is like me saying that the rogue can explore the whole dungeon in an hour, not withstanding closed doors, traps and enemies.

A Rogue absolutely can explore an entire dungeon during an hour. Any published WOTC adventure, every single room in much less time than that. The only thing that prevents it is discovery, failing a stealth check, opening a door or an area he can't hide in. In terms of time though that is PLENTY of time RAW.

I will go even further. An hour is enough time for a Rogue to go through any dungeon in any WOTC and not only explore every room but kill every monster in every room and have time left over (if he could kill every monster without dying).

Sure, but 99% of the time they happen simultaneously with exploration or combat, two pillars that you are using concentration spells in.

Only because they have to physically be there. If you are using Arcane Eye you are going to cast it before you go in, expllore every room it can get to and then go in.

Many monsters don't speak common and you will often not have their language handy. Social includes gestures in those situations, and good luck using gestures to get that spell to work.

Well if the DM does not include any creatures that the party can speak to, then the social pillar is pretty irrelevant isn't it?

How is the Rogue, who is allegedly better, communicating with them?

While I am at it I probably have comprehend languages as a ritual, so if they have a language I can understand them if I have the time for it.

Or have a very generous DM who lets your arcane eye competently search out all the information a rogue can get while traveling full speed and adds in the extra ability for your eye to see in all directions simultaneously.

It can see in all directions simultaneously. That is how sight works in 5E. It also has darkvision.

I also don't think you are comprehending the timing here and the amount of space covered. You can houserule and slow the eye down A LOT and it will still have plenty of time to do its thing. I mean RAW it can cover 3 miles in an hour. 3 miles! How much are you going to slow it down?

If the DM follows RAW, that won't happen.

Yes it will. There is no facing in 5E. You see in all directions. That is RAW.

You can nerf the spell if you want, bbut that is homebrew, not RAW.

By 8th level(the level you chose for your wizard) he can have expertise Persuasion, Insight, Stealth and Thieves' Tools. Further, he has cunning action to allow him to do things better than your wizard, and uncanny dodge and evasion for combat/exploration. Plus any subclass abilities that would help. Your bladesinger abilities aren't geared for stealth and exploration like a rogue's.

The wizard I used in this example had the ability to hide and disengage as a bonus action at level 1, a level before the Rogue could. The only thing cunning action allows him to do better is dash and with a 40 move in bladesong I am only 10 feet behind most Rogues using double dash (and ahead of a halfling or Dwarf).

The bladesinger abilities are geared towards combat, because you wanted someone who could engage in combat as well as a fighter. Bladesong would make his move 40, which means he can dash 80.

 

[Fanaelialae]

Sure, lots of times. Certainly nowhere near 2/3 my speed. Maybe 1/10.

And certainly one of them couldn’t kill a warhorse without poison by biting it 10 times.

This has more to do with the abstract nature of stat blocks and discrete units in D&D, IMO.

Look at the Swarm of insects stat block. That also moves at 20', whether it be a swarm of beetles, centipedes, or spiders. Crabs also move at 20'. IME, larger crabs tend to be quite slow relative to small crabs.

When you have "one size fits all" stat blocks, it's not always going to be a perfect fit. I don't think that the Poisonous Snake stat block perfectly represents every kind of venomous snake from a rattlesnake to a king cobra, but it's what the designers gave us to work with. We could extrapolate from it that the designers only intend for one species of venomous snake to exist in the entirety of the D&D multiverse, but I think that would be the wrong take away.

A warhorse has 19 hp, so it would actually take 19 bites sans poison (assuming they all hit). But, again, I would say this has more to do with a single HP being the smallest discreet unit of resilience, and one damage being the smallest discreet unit of harm. To put it in perspective, a [house]cat also deals 1 damage with its claws. Does it make sense for 19 cat scratches to kill a warhorse? No, that's obviously completely nonsensical. I took at least that many scratches the one time my one cat went after my other cat and I had to protect her. I was in significant pain afterwards, but not much worse for wear. We were running late for her check up at the vet so I had to drive to the vet still bleeding from dozens of scratches. Does that make me tougher than a Clydesdale, or do we just accept that there are certain things that aren't necessarily perfect under the HP system in D&D?

 

[Bill Zebub]

This has more to do with the abstract nature of stat blocks and discrete units in D&D, IMO.

Look at the Swarm of insects stat block. That also moves at 20', whether it be a swarm of beetles, centipedes, or spiders. Crabs also move at 20'. IME, larger crabs tend to be quite slow relative to small crabs.

When you have "one size fits all" stat blocks, it's not always going to be a perfect fit. I don't think that the Poisonous Snake stat block perfectly represents every kind of venomous snake from a rattlesnake to a king cobra, but it's what the designers gave us to work with. We could extrapolate from it that the designers only intend for one species of venomous snake to exist in the entirety of the D&D multiverse, but I think that would be the wrong take away.

A warhorse has 19 hp, so it would actually take 19 bites sans poison (assuming they all hit). But, again, I would say this has more to do with a single HP being the smallest discreet unit of resilience, and one damage being the smallest discreet unit of harm. To put it in perspective, a [house]cat also deals 1 damage with its claws. Does it make sense for 19 cat scratches to kill a warhorse? No, that's obviously completely nonsensical. I took at least that many scratches the one time my one cat went after my other cat and I had to protect her. I was in significant pain afterwards, but not much worse for wear. We were running late for her check up at the vet so I had to drive to the vet still bleeding from dozens of scratches. Does that make me tougher than a Clydesdale, or do we just accept that there are certain things that aren't necessarily perfect under the HP system in D&D?

Yeah I shouldn’t have gone there with the HP. Upthread I said there was no point trying to rationalize anything in D&D using the price list as the starting point, and the same could be said of the HP system.

That said, I still don’t believe the “spider” entry is meant to represent a typical (if venomous) house spider. I would let a player ask for one as their familiar, but it would have a very, very small movement rate.

A swarm of spiders might be comprised of normal sized ones.

 

[Bill Zebub]

Oh lord do I hate to cite Reddit as a source for anything, but it was the first result that popped up and I’m on my phone:

how fast can spiders run

 

[Maxperson]

Fighters miss as well, probably more than this character as she can hide as a bonus action and potentially get advantage on one of her attacks

Not as often.

An Arcane Eye moves the same speed as a Rogue (faster if the Rogue is a halfling or Dwarf).

It is literally impossible for it to be anywhere near as thorough at exploration as the Rogue. At the speed you want it to move, it has found no traps, gone through no doors that are not shoddily constructed(which means that it hasn't searched the majority of any dungeon, and hasn't really seen much of anything, since it has only looked in one direction as it moved.

Even if you houserule this and say it can only move 5 feet per turn there is still PLENTY of time to explore any WOTC published dungeoun you are going to complete in a day, plenty of time, it is not even close

Why would I need to house rule something that while good, isn't going to be a good substitute for a rogue?

As noted earlier I have thieves tool proficiency, I can resort to knock if I fail and it makes sense. This makes mee better than the Rogue

You still haven't explained how triggering multiple encounters to come TPK you is better than a rogue who doesn't do that. You just keep repeating that it is better as if repetition will somehow make it true.

A dex difference that is going to matter on one trap out of 20 and if he has thieves tools expertise then he only has expertise in 3 skills.

Yep. And those 3 skills make him better at stealth and social than the wizard.

Please tell me what you spend time doing in this 24-hour day. Go through it for me.

Adventuring(which includes a few short rests if possible) and an 8 hour rest, which can be interrupted by an encounter.

The DM does not decide when and where the party goes.

That is true.

Do you think I am going to say - "Ok guys we cleared this room in 45 seconds, I have 59 minutes left on my spell, so let's wait until it is expired before we go to the next room"

Nope. Do you think that the group just adventures for a single hour and all 6-8 encounters conveniently happen during that time?

Sure if you have encounters while we are at camp or resting, in which case the exploration and stealth pillars are meaningless and most of this discussion is irrelevant.

You've never had an encounter while trying to rest? No wonder you think spellcasters are broken. Your DM makes it very easy on you guys. There's a reason that parties put up watches during a rest.

The DM does not decide the timing on when we explore and when we rest etc. We cast the spell and we do everything we need to do between now and our next short rest and we complete it in minutes. Then we rest and cast it again, then we rest and cast it again. Then the adventuring day is over and we either leave or wait around (i.e. camp) for another 13 or so hours until we can start another long rest. Sure the DM can give us more encounters then, but he is going to go well past the 8 encounters per day to do that.

If the players are deliberately breaking the game balance, the DM needs to have a talk with them. The 6-8 encounters MUST happen or the game breaks. Either the group goes to them, or they go to the group. Unfortunately 5e doesn't leave any other choice that doesn't break the game.

This is not always the case, especially on wilderness adventures, but on those you are not doing a normal "adventuring day" worth of encounters and you are typically not short on slots at all

Those other days don't matter since nothing is going on except exploration and social.

A Rogue absolutely can explore an entire dungeon during an hour. Any published WOTC adventure, every single room in much less time than that.

Not and do any actual exploring, which is much more involved than reporting back "Hey guys! The dungeon has walls, a bunch of doors I didn't have time to open and explore, and some rooms!" which is all you can get from the eye or rogue at that speed.

The only thing that prevents it is discovery, failing a stealth check, opening a door or an area he can't hide in.

Yes. Opening doors takes time. Actually exploring rooms takes time. Dealing with monsters takes time. Dealing with traps takes time.

I will go even further. An hour is enough time for a Rogue to go through any dungeon in any WOTC and not only explore every room but kill every monster in every room and have time left over (if he could kill every monster without dying).

Why do you think that exploration doesn't involve finding out information other than the dungeon has walls, rooms, maybe some of the monsters, and doors?

They eye has physicality or it wouldn't be hampered by spaces smaller than an inch(pretty much every door), so it will be detected by anything with a blind sense or that can see invisible, and will trigger all traps that deal with motion or go off when something passes by. It's not listed as indestructible, so something that small that takes damage needs a DM ruling, since the spell is silent on what happens when the physical eye takes damage. I'd rule that it's destroyed, since it doesn't have hit points and is not intangible or indestructible. I'm sure your DM would take it easy on you and just make it immune to all damage.

The eye also can't open the doors that the rogue can, so even if a rogue could do it in an hour, the eye certainly cannot. It gets stuck at the first door.

Only because they have to physically be there. If you are using Arcane Eye you are going to cast it before you go in, expllore every room it can get to and then go in.

You don't get to explore ever room with the eye. Unless the door is like a rickety kobold built door or falling apart, there isn't a 1 inch gap for the eye to go through.

Well if the DM does not include any creatures that the party can speak to, then the social pillar is pretty irrelevant isn't it?

As I explained, no. But it doesn't have to be no monsters. If there are only a few, then the wizard hasn't been better at social, either. Basically the wizard in your scenario needs there to be exactly 1, and he needs that monster to be one that won't or can't come back later to get revenge, and he needs it to be one that can do something for the group while charmed, rather than just converse.

While I am at it I probably have comprehend languages as a ritual, so if they have a language I can understand them if I have the time for it.

Cool. Hopefully the monster will just wait around for 10 minutes while you chant and draw chalk symbols(or whatever the ritual entails) without attacking at the obvious potential threat.

It can see in all directions simultaneously. That is how sight works in 5E. It also has darkvision.

Um, no. No PC can see all directions simultaneously. That's patently absurd. Do you think they have eyes in back of, on the side of, on the bottom of, and on top of their heads? No description of PCs shows or implies that. Vision is not simultaneously 360 degrees and RAW shows that over and over. Hell, someone being able to sneak up on you from behind is proof positive of that.

From the hiding rules...

"However, under certain circumstances, the D M might allow you to stay hidden as you approach a creature that is distracted, allowing you to gain advantage on an attack roll before you are seen."

No amount of distraction could make that possible if you saw in all directions simultaneously.

I also don't think you are comprehending the timing here and the amount of space covered. You can houserule and slow the eye down A LOT and it will still have plenty of time to do its thing. I mean RAW it can cover 3 miles in an hour. 3 miles! How much are you going to slow it down?

Doors! Not like there aren't a whole lot of them in a dungeon.

Yes it will. There is no facing in 5E. You see in all directions. That is RAW.

Not according to RAW. Show me the written rule that says explicitly that you can see in all directions at once. I just showed you one that makes that claim impossible. In fact, blindsight does explicitly say that, "A creature with blindsight can perceive its surroundings without relying on sight, within a specific radius." Show me the similar language dealing with visual sight.

The wizard I used in this example had the ability to hide and disengage as a bonus action at level 1, a level before the Rogue could. The only thing cunning action allows him to do better is dash and with a 40 move in bladesong I am only 10 feet behind most Rogues using double dash (and ahead of a halfling or Dwarf).

We're using level 8, not level 1. But fine. At level 1 you have two level 1 slots to be better than the rogue in all areas with. The halfling is re-rolling all those 1s you fail with, and the dwarf is wearing heavy armor or has yet more hit points than you do, and has advantage on the poison saves from traps and monsters. You act like speed is everything to survival and exploration. It's not.

 

[ECMO3]

Not as often.

Actually probably more often considering things like invisibility, darkness and nimble escape.

It is literally impossible for it to be anywhere near as thorough at exploration as the Rogue. At the speed you want it to move, it has found no traps, gone through no doors that are not shoddily constructed(which means that it hasn't searched the majority of any dungeon, and hasn't really seen much of anything, since it has only looked in one direction as it moved.

It moves at the exact same speed as a Rogue! If the Rogue can find those things why can't I do it with my Eye? This is aside from the fact you can slow it down a lot (by like 90%) and there is still plenty of time time to clear just about any dungeoun.

Why would I need to house rule something that while good, isn't going to be a good substitute for a rogue?

Becqause you are saying it can't find things if moving. That is a houserule and it is one that even you applied it, it would still not stop the eye from scouting an entire dungeoun. Let it move and search and it does it 10 minutes. Make it stop and spend 4 turns searching for every 30 feet moved and it still finishes long before an hour is complete.

You still haven't explained how triggering multiple encounters to come TPK you is better than a rogue who doesn't do that. You just keep repeating that it is better as if repetition will somehow make it true.

I am not triggering any encounters if I don't cast knock.

Moreover I can go back and cast knock on all the chests we failed on after we completely clear the dungeon and all the bad guys are dead. Without me we just leave all that treasure behind.

You haven't explained how the Rogue is going to open the locks that he fails on. Maybe I open them, maybe they are too dangerous, but having that option makes me better not worse.

Yep. And those 3 skills make him better at stealth and social than the wizard.

They are no match for spells.

Adventuring(which includes a few short rests if possible) and an 8 hour rest, which can be interrupted by an encounter.

Sure they can. But if I have 6-8 encounters adventuring between the short rests and then you send more encounters during the long rests just because you want encounters when my spells are not active then you are not using a standard adventuring day.

Also keep in mind thesse hour long spells will often be active for much of the time you are doing a short rest too. If I cast disguise self and spend 15 minutes clearing 3 rooms and having 3 fights and then we short rest, the spell is still active for most of that rest.

Nope. Do you think that the group just adventures for a single hour and all 6-8 encounters conveniently happen during that time?

RAW it will be far, far less than an hour unless you are traveling great distances between encounters.

8 fights of 4 rounds each is less than 4 minutes. Add the travel time between encounters and the time searching (a 6-second action) and the time opening chests etc (again typically an action) and you have the total time.

Like I said unless you are traveling great distances overland it will be much less than an hour.

I gave you an example above which included 10 battles, searching 50 rooms, untrapping and unlocking 100 chests and traveling a mile and all that took less than an hour of time.

If you add short rests in here it looks like this:
Wake up from your long rest-
Explore 15 rooms, have 3 fights, untrap 30 chests, unlock 30 chests, walk 1800 feet total between rooms - 20 minute
Short rest - 1 hour
Explore 15 rooms, have 3 fights, untrap 30 chests, unlock 30 chests, walk 1800 feet total between rooms - 20 minutes
short rest - 1 hour
Explore 15 rooms, have 3 fights, untrarap 30 chests, unlock 30 chests, qalk 1800 feet between rooms - 20 minutes

At this point you have spend 3 hours total adventuring and esting, you have completed more than a standard adventuring day worth of encounters (far more if the DM sent even more at you during your short rests).

Since you have already completed more than a standard adventuring day, you are done. You now make camp and wait 13 hours until you can start your next long rest. Alternatively you could take another short rest and then complete the last 5 rooms, which would take another hour and 10 minutes roughly and make it roughly a 4-hour adventuring day.

Now important to this discussion:
1. This example is a very spread out dungeon with more time walking than anything else.
2. This 3-hours is more than a standard adventuring day in terms of accomplishments and encounters
3. It is all completed in less than an hour plus resting time.

You've never had an encounter while trying to rest? No wonder you think spellcasters are broken. Your DM makes it very easy on you guys. There's a reason that parties put up watches during a rest.

No I have it all the time, but stealth and exploration are not relevant and social is often not relevant when that happens. Further if you are sticking to a standard adventuring day, this will pull encounters away from when you are exploring and sneaking.

So if we are having a standard adventuring day and I have 2 short rests and you throw 4 encounters into each of them then either we are having heavy non-standard adventuring days or I am not have any encounters when I am not resting.

If the players are deliberately breaking the game balance, the DM needs to have a talk with them. The 6-8 encounters MUST happen or the game breaks. Either the group goes to them, or they go to the group. Unfortunately 5e doesn't leave any other choice that doesn't break the game.

Exactly! So we go to those 6-8 encounters and we go to them in 3 intervals each lasting less than 15 minutes with a short rest between.

That is the whole point. Only 6-8 encounters should happen, not more than that and as long as those are tied to places or things we do then WE control when they happen, and unless there is great distances to travel they happen in minutes, not hours.

We wake up a 6:00 AM and have all those 6-8 encounters in the first 4 hours by going the places we need to go and doing the things we need to do and taking 2 short rests during that time. Then by 1000 AM we are done for the day. We completed the 6-8 encounters and we will wait around somewhere until 1000 PM when we will start another long rest to get ready for the next adventuring day.

The DM's only has two choices here:
1. to overload us during that downtime after our adventuring day is over. This drives us over the 8 encounters a day and as you noted would break the game.
2. Eliminate set encounters so they don't happen and instead make the eoncuonters happen while we are resting. This would really hurt the story I think and it makes stealth and exploration irrelevant since there are no encounters during that time.

Not and do any actual exploring, which is much more involved than reporting back "Hey guys! The dungeon has walls, a bunch of doors I didn't have time to open and explore, and some rooms!" which is all you can get from the eye or rogue at that speed.

Yes. Opening doors takes time. Actually exploring rooms takes time. Dealing with monsters takes time. Dealing with traps takes time.

There are actually rules for this and to be honest with a Rogue you can even go faster than that. In a turn you get movement, an action, an interaction and potentially a bonus action and reaction.

All that does take time, but very, very little time.

A Rogue can do ALL of the following in 6 seconds:
Move 30 feet (movement)
Open a door (interaction)
Search (action)
move 30 more feet (bonus action)

My Wizard could do lots of things too:
Move 30 feet (movement)
Open door (interaction)
Cast minor illusion to distract or fool guards (action)
Go into bladesong (bonus action)
move 10 more feet (extra movement)

Dealing with monsters does take more time assuming you are either going to talk to them or fight them, but we are still talking minutes and seconds respectively, not hours. There is no way RAW you are going to spend hours exploring a dungeon (not counting resting)

Why do you think that exploration doesn't involve finding out information other than the dungeon has walls, rooms, maybe some of the monsters, and doors?

It does, it just happens very fast RAW.

As I keep saying the only thing that does not happen fast is traveling long distances and resting. There is time in the RAW for just about everything else you are going to do.

They eye has physicality or it wouldn't be hampered by spaces smaller than an inch(pretty much every door), so it will be detected by anything with a blind sense or that can see invisible, and will trigger all traps that deal with motion or go off when something passes by. It's not listed as indestructible, so something that small that takes damage needs a DM ruling, since the spell is silent on what happens when the physical eye takes damage. I'd rule that it's destroyed, since it doesn't have hit points and is not intangible or indestructible. I'm sure your DM would take it easy on you and just make it immune to all damage.

So will the Rogue in that case. The eye triggering the traps is ideal as they will spring and hurt no one.

RAW it hovers in the air for the duration, that is written in the spell description. You can't change that by damaging it. As long as the spell is active it is hovering there. This argument is like saying you can destroy a healing spirit or an arcane lock.

The eye also can't open the doors that the rogue can, so even if a rogue could do it in an hour, the eye certainly cannot. It gets stuck at the first door.

It depends if there is a 1-inch gap below the door. As I said 3 posts above the 1-inch gap is the limiting factor. There are options here, although none of them automatic.

1. You could explore everything not behind doors then go in and open the doors yourself.
2. If you know the way is clear you or potentially your familiar could go in and open the door
3. You can wait for someone to come out, although that can drain the time the spell is active.

In any case blind doors are going to be a problem for a scouting rogue too. Hee can open them, but it is unlikely he can do it without being discovered if there are concious enemies on the other side.

As I explained, no. But it doesn't have to be no monsters. If there are only a few, then the wizard hasn't been better at social, either. Basically the wizard in your scenario needs there to be exactly 1, and he needs that monster to be one that won't or can't come back later to get revenge, and he needs it to be one that can do something for the group while charmed, rather than just converse. If there are only a few, then the wizard hasn't been better at social, either. Basically the wizard in your scenario needs there to be exactly 1, and he needs that monster to be one that won't or can't come back later to get revenge, and he needs it to be one that can do something for the group while charmed, rather than just converse.

I am not sure if you understand the spell. Charm Monster works on all creatures. You can use it on humans or orcs or giants or dragons or try to use it on elves or anything else you are trying to talk to.

It is undoubtedly an edge to have this in your back pocket.

Sure it is one monster, but that is one more than otherwise, and I will point out that in your last post you said there would be very few monsters to communicate with anyway. So if there is very few and I can use it on one of them, that is significant. I also have friends and suggestion both of which can also be used (friends an infinite number of times)

Cool. Hopefully the monster will just wait around for 10 minutes while you chant and draw chalk symbols(or whatever the ritual entails) without attacking at the obvious potential threat.

Sure and against the Rogue he is just going to attack as well. I will add though if I cast charm monster and then the ritual he won't attack (or at least won't attack me).

Your arguement is the Rogue is better. What is the Rogue going to do in this situation when he can't communicate?

Um, no. No PC can see all directions simultaneously. That's patently absurd.

Yes they can, that is the way 5 e works. By the way the Arcane Eye spell even specifies this - " You mentally receive visual information from the eye, which has normal vision and darkvision out to 30 feet. The eye can look in every direction."

Do you think they have eyes in back of, on the side of, on the bottom of, and on top of their heads? No description of PCs shows or implies that. Vision is not simultaneously 360 degrees and RAW shows that over and over. Hell, someone being able to sneak up on you from behind is proof positive of that.

Time is handled in 6 second increments and during that time you see everything around you. You turn your head to do this.

"However, under certain circumstances, the D M might allow you to stay hidden as you approach a creature that is distracted, allowing you to gain advantage on an attack roll before you are seen."

Sure, certain circumstances, so not generally.

This is like a Wizard doing an Obiwan move and putting a minor illusion of a sound down the hallway in another direction to get the guards to look that way while he sneaks by.

Doors! Not like there aren't a whole lot of them in a dungeon.

So then you explore the area with no doors, walk in and open the door and send the eye in that direction. You are talking about seconds here.

Not according to RAW. Show me the written rule that says explicitly that you can see in all directions at once. I just showed you one that makes that claim impossible. In fact, blindsight does explicitly say that, "A creature with blindsight can perceive its surroundings without relying on sight, within a specific radius." Show me the similar language dealing with visual sight.

Vision is 360 degrees on every 5E VTT published, including those endorsed by WOTC.

There are no facing rules in 5E. If you play that a player can only see in a certain direction, how do you determine what that direction is?

RAW an enemy attacking someone from behind does not get advantage and such an enemy would be "unseen" if players had limited vision.

We're using level 8, not level 1. But fine. At level 1 you have two level 1 slots to be better than the rogue in all areas with. The halfling is re-rolling all those 1s you fail with, and the dwarf is wearing heavy armor or has yet more hit points than you do, and has advantage on the poison saves from traps and monsters. You act like speed is everything to survival and exploration. It's not.

A level 1 Dwarf Rogue wearing heavy armor has disadvantage on all skill checks and attacks.

The only thing that takes significant time during exploration is traveling, because of that speed is the most important thing when talking about how long something takes (and that was your focus with respect to spells)