D&D 5E Are Wizards really all that?

[FrozenNorth]

But only the ones in their spellbook, which only adds spells through DM fiat or leveling up. If the wizard never chooses it as a level-up option, they won't be preparing it mid-adventure.

I just want to comment that n the issue of DM fiat, as it is something that benefits from digging in a bit.

If a wizard PC asks “Hey, this is a pretty big town, is there a library where I could copy some spells?” The answer depends on DM Fiat.

If a fighter PC asks (before a heist) “Hey, can I use my soldier background to carouse with the guard, maybe get some intel on the layout and frequency of guard patrols?” The answer also depends on DM fiat.

Very often, “the wizard is not OP” arguments depend on saying No to the first question and yes to the second. So yes, DM fiat is a thing, but it doesn’t seem to be deployed evenly.

 

[Gammadoodler]

So another way to look at it.

The gish - a spellcaster that functions as a melee damage dealer..is pretty darn achievable at very high levels of effectiveness with many 5e spellcasters.

Is the reverse achievable..like at all?

 

[Asisreo]

no they wouldn't it comes down to stats...

a fighter gets nothing to help lift/pull at all... just stats. now the druid from a moment ago can dump stat and turn into something to get strength though

Except there is no valid beast for the moon druid that gets them either a +8 in regular strength checks or a +11 in athletics. Even if they did, sometimes a strength check needs something with opposable thumbs.

And the D&D animal kingdom is surprisingly bad at dexterity in general.

and the wizard gets 2 new choices every level... how many can fighters pick?

The topic was that a wizard might not have an optimal spell in a specific adventure. Whether the fighter gets a choice or not is irrelevant to the discussion.

it's weird that you pigion holed "I have no idea what I am doing and just pick spell at random" on to the wizard.

I think it would be a tactically sound decision to cast darkness on an enemy depending on your party composition. It's not picking a spell at random, it's using a legitimate strategy. The point is that a legitimate strategy may not work as expected and, if it doesn't, then the resources used to commit to the strategy is wasted.

wait... says who?

on average the fighter has 2hp more then the wizard/sorcerer (and 1hp per level better then any other non d10 full caster) if they both have equal con scores... and AC is totally build and equipment dependent.

2hp more, per level, on classes that prioritize a spellcasting ability modifier on top of their AC and HP ability scores.

A fighter can easily get 20+ AC and +5 con while sacrificing nothing to their preferred gameplan, then they can increase other ability scores as desired.

A spellcaster barely gets +5 to their spellcasting score and +5 to either AC or HP scores. And for each point invested the AC or HP before +5 spellcasting is a point not invested in their primary gameplan.

the only options I see on a fighter are parry, defensive fighting style and two weapon fighting feats... 1 requires activation, 2 require weapons (and if surprised no weapon at the ready)

You've misinterpreted my statement. There are no need for options because those are built-in.

At the start of combat, a fighter will always have their max AC and HP stats. A wizard must use their reactions, actions, or pre-buff time to gain those benefits.

wait what?!? what metric are we using to detriment how many d20s we roll for a given class

It's simple. Spells don't normally require player-facing ability checks or saving throws. But a fighter will have higher physical ability scores on average and will always be using attack rolls or ability checks in combat. And almost always use ability checks out of combat.

 

[Asisreo]

Very often, “the wizard is not OP” arguments depend on saying No to the first question and yes to the second. So yes, DM fiat is a thing, but it doesn’t seem to be deployed evenly.

That's not what I'm saying, though.

Assuming an impartial DM, the reason they'd deny your actions would be either consistency or to preserve their tolerable versimilitude. If a DM judges that the fighter's attempt is not possible and the wizard's make sense in context, then that's how it is.

But the reason wasn't because the wizard had more options, it's just that the wizard player's attempted action made enough sense for the DM.

It doesn't matter if you have a billion more options than another character if those options are shutdown just by natural context. If a DM had a rakshasa NPC disguised as a person, then no matter how clever the wizard tries to word it, the spell Charm Person has no effect.

But that doesn't mean the wizard gets nothing. They might have more options, on average, but those options can either be punished or rewarded. Again, impartial DM.

 

[Maxperson]

I just want to comment that n the issue of DM fiat, as it is something that benefits from digging in a bit.

If a wizard PC asks “Hey, this is a pretty big town, is there a library where I could copy some spells?” The answer depends on DM Fiat.

If a fighter PC asks (before a heist) “Hey, can I use my soldier background to carouse with the guard, maybe get some intel on the layout and frequency of guard patrols?” The answer also depends on DM fiat.

Very often, “the wizard is not OP” arguments depend on saying No to the first question and yes to the second. So yes, DM fiat is a thing, but it doesn’t seem to be deployed evenly.

Yes, fiat is pretty big, but if the DM is being fair it's okay.

The game default is for magic to be relatively rare(per the DMG), so it's unlikely that you will be getting spells from most libraries, if any at all. That's fiat, but also a fair ruling according to RAW. This will change if the DM has altered the setting of course.

The fighter background is specifically geared towards getting along with guards/soldiers, so it's far more likely for this to be a yes. If the DM is being fair.

Also note that the "wizard is not OP" doesn't at all depend on spells in a library being there or not. You can answer yes to that question every other Tuesday and it won't change my position. The wizard remains limited by slots and spells prepared, so the dozens and dozens of spells in the spell book don't mean anything if the one the wizard needs isn't a ritual(rare) or memorized.

 

[Garthanos]

I just want to comment that n the issue of DM fiat, as it is something that benefits from digging in a bit.

If a wizard PC asks “Hey, this is a pretty big town, is there a library where I could copy some spells?” The answer depends on DM Fiat.

If a fighter PC asks (before a heist) “Hey, can I use my soldier background to carouse with the guard, maybe get some intel on the layout and frequency of guard patrols?” The answer also depends on DM fiat.

Very often, “the wizard is not OP” arguments depend on saying No to the first question and yes to the second. So yes, DM fiat is a thing, but it doesn’t seem to be deployed evenly.

And never has been... can I remember reading about these monster types for clues about their vulnerabilities (both basic ones and special) is another question? No but the fighter remembers listening to fireside discussions about it AND the rogue remembers the listening to adventurers tales at the Inn. Artificial support for martial is LOL ridiculous. The high intelligence guy in the example gets DM fiat nerfed isnt that fun???

 

[Maxperson]

And never has been... can I remember reading about these monster types for clues about their vulnerabilities (both basic ones and special) is another question? No but the fighter remembers listening to fireside discussions about it AND the rogue remembers the listening to adventurers tales at the Inn. Artificial support for martial is LOL ridiculous. The high intelligence guy in the example gets DM fiat nerfed isnt that fun???

So let's be clear. You can answer no every single time to the library question and the wizard hasn't been nerfed in the slightest, by fiat or anything else. There are scrolls, other spellbooks, other wizards to share spells with, etc. for the wizard to get his spells from. He doesn't need free spells from the local library in order to be functional.

 

[Gammadoodler]

Yes, fiat is pretty big, but if the DM is being fair it's okay.

The game default is for magic to be relatively rare(per the DMG), so it's unlikely that you will be getting spells from most libraries, if any at all. That's fiat, but also a fair ruling according to RAW. This will change if the DM has altered the setting of course.

The fighter background is specifically geared towards getting along with guards/soldiers, so it's far more likely for this to be a yes. If the DM is being fair.

Also note that the "wizard is not OP" doesn't at all depend on spells in a library being there or not. You can answer yes to that question every other Tuesday and it won't change my position. The wizard remains limited by slots and spells prepared, so the dozens and dozens of spells in the spell book don't mean anything if the one the wizard needs isn't a ritual(rare) or memorized.

In fairness its the soldier background, not a fighter thing. And the benefit is for friendly military organizations that recognize your rank (assuming that rank is notable in any way) rather than generic soldier-y folks.

That and the sage background are both well into "we'll see what the dm gives us territory"

 

[Maxperson]

In fairness its the soldier background, not a fighter thing. And the benefit is for friendly military organizations that recognize your rank (assuming that rank is notable in any way) rather than generic soldier-y folks.

That and the sage background are both well into "we'll see what the dm gives us territory"

And hermit with the secret of the universe. And noble with the places to stay. A lot of backgrounds are written that way, which is fine. Fiat is what makes the game go. It's not a bad thing. It's the single best tool in the game. Can it be abused like any other tool? Yes. That doesn't make it a bad thing, though. It just makes the rare DM that does it bad.

 

[Cap'n Kobold]

Except there is no valid beast for the moon druid that gets them either a +8 in regular strength checks or a +11 in athletics. Even if they did, sometimes a strength check needs something with opposable thumbs.

I mean since we're talking about lift/drag, and at level 20 it seems, the moon Druid can pull off a +7 Strength check, or a +13 in athletics. Also being able to lift or drag many times what the fighter could due to becoming a larger creature.

The topic was that a wizard might not have an optimal spell in a specific adventure. Whether the fighter gets a choice or not is irrelevant to the discussion.

If you don't get any abilities to choose from, you will never be able to choose an optimal ability for any situation.

I think it would be a tactically sound decision to cast darkness on an enemy depending on your party composition. It's not picking a spell at random, it's using a legitimate strategy. The point is that a legitimate strategy may not work as expected and, if it doesn't, then the resources used to commit to the strategy is wasted.

I think in a thread like this, where emotions can get high, using such an edge-case scenario to try to illustrate a "typical situation" may not work as expected, even if you do regard it as a legitimate strategy.

2hp more, per level, on classes that prioritize a spellcasting ability modifier on top of their AC and HP ability scores.

A fighter can easily get 20+ AC and +5 con while sacrificing nothing to their preferred gameplan, then they can increase other ability scores as desired.

A spellcaster barely gets +5 to their spellcasting score and +5 to either AC or HP scores. And for each point invested the AC or HP before +5 spellcasting is a point not invested in their primary gameplan.

What would the "preferred gameplan" of a character that focused upon Con over their primary ability score, and how would it differ between fighter and spellcaster?
Fighters need Primary ability score, Dex (if it isn't their primary) and Con. Spellcasters need their primary ability score, Dex, and Con too.