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D&D 5E Are Wizards really all that?

Has anyone's opinion actually shifted one way or another as a result of discussion in this thread? Or have people simply entrenched their heels even deeper behind their lines in the sand?

No, but I’m better understanding what the various factions want.

What’s interesting is that people can be united in disliking what we have now, but be very divided on the best solutions. Which suggests that no matter what design is chosen, the majority (of Enworld posters) will hate it.
 

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The Champion is the simple fighter, though. How good can a non-combat ability get if it's constant like all of their abilities are? Your suggestion is a definite improvement, but is it too good for 7th level? It seems like maybe it is. Perhaps swap it for the 10th level ability.
Maybe it' a little too good but I feel like the Simple Fighter could use it... I would be more inclined to agree if the Champion got his second Fighting style at level 3 instead of that dumb critical range expansion.

It would help frame the Champion as ‘the guy who is really good at physical stuff’, like an athlete or, dare I say, a champion.
Honestly, for the champion I just gave prof/expertise in Acrobatics and Athletics in my houserule for Remarkable Athlete. If anything, in my opinion it's simpler than the default, which everyone says the champion is made to be.
Oh yeah that works!

I wish 'expertise' had just been a defined mechanic somewhere. At the very least treat it like a M:TG keyword where it gets reminder text if there is room, (like the first time in shows up in a class/subclass) but then only refered to as ‘Expertise’ when repeated at later level. It should have been more liberally used for the various Martial types.

Let the Rogue keep having more expertise than anybody else and being able to pick expertise in ANY skill they’re proficient with, but have, like, the Ranger get expertise in Nature/Survival/animal Handling (their choice), give the Fighter some in their sub classes, that sort of thing. It’s a decent and straight forward mechanic that feels underused.
 

Maybe it' a little too good but I feel like the Simple Fighter could use it... I would be more inclined to agree if the Champion got his second Fighting style at level 3 instead of that dumb critical range expansion.

It would help frame the Champion as ‘the guy who is really good at physical stuff’, like an athlete or, dare I say, a champion.
I don't think it's dumb. The other fighter subclasses get damage boosts at 3rd and a fighting style just doesn't do as much as improved critical does to increase damage. Maybe double the boosts to crit range. 18-20 at 3rd level and 16-20 at 15th.

I DO think 10th level is waaaay too high to be a second fighting style ability, though. That's why I suggested swapping it with the 7th level ability and then using your suggestion at 10th, which would be more in line with the power level of what you suggested.
 

I don't think it's dumb. The other fighter subclasses get damage boosts at 3rd and a fighting style just doesn't do as much as improved critical does to increase damage. Maybe double the boosts to crit range. 18-20 at 3rd level and 16-20 at 15th.

I DO think 10th level is waaaay too high to be a second fighting style ability, though. That's why I suggested swapping it with the 7th level ability and then using your suggestion at 10th, which would be more in line with the power level of what you suggested.
Maybe the improved critical range could have been a Fighting Style? Or the Second Fighting style could just be a basic feature of the Fighter?
 

Who knows how the fighter can help? Maybe if the player is clever, they can somehow use their ability scores, skills, or tools to help the party with whatever they need. The point, though, is that the wizard and fighter, in this scenario, is at best at even footing.
But if the wizard player is clever,…he can do a lot more than the fighter player. That is tha nature of having a lot of open-ended levers to play with.

Prestidigitation is a clever player’s dream. There are videos of 101 ways you can use Shape Water, including creating ice ladders and instant rafts. You can do even more with Minor Illusion. None of these take spell slots.

Familiars also have tons of uses. They can scout, they can keep watch, they can give advantage on attacks.

A DM can limit the use of magic by throwing out “No, becauses…”, but that is not a fun position to be, especially if you are “Yes, andind…” the clever fighter or rogue player.
 

yup... worst case for the wizard is to be exactly equal to the fighter... that is the issue
In this scenario. Same idea if it was a druid and wizard who prepared nothing for monstrosities. But that doesn't mean wizards are better than druids.

If it was something that required a strength check, like pulling a stuck lever or pushing aside a boulder, then the fighter would have a clear and distinct advantage.
wizards prep spells after every long rest
But only the ones in their spellbook, which only adds spells through DM fiat or leveling up. If the wizard never chooses it as a level-up option, they won't be preparing it mid-adventure.
wait... why would they 'waste rounds' they don't have ANY damage or combat spells or cantrips? that seems a weird scenario.
Is it weird that a wizard would try to use their action for something other than damage? In fact, it's often argued the wizard's combat niche is specifically non-damage effects.
how is the wizard worse off for being suprised?
They have lower AC and HP. And since they're surprised, they can't use a reaction or first-round buff to mitigate incoming attacks. Fighters needn't activate any of their defensive abilities. That's the power of resourceless passives.
what we can do is look at the options we have to make the characters.... the fighter can do damage take damage and use skills... the wizard can do damage (admittedly less then an optimized fighter but not a lot less) take damage, use skills AND have access to an entire sub system that changes the game that the fighter does not.
But that's not all a fighter can do, that's just what the class itself provides a character. But a fighter character can also create clockwork devices, communicate with small and smaller beasts, attempt hiding in light rain, fog, etc. Not to mention they do have a small catalog of spells they can acquire without a spellcasting subclass.

And while these are afford to other characters as well, that still gives the fighter character options. Potentially better-used than if the wizard had them. Considering martials use ability checks more often than wizards, a halfling's lucky has more opportunities to be useful for a fighter.

What I'm trying to say is that choosing to be a fighter doesn't mean you choose to disengage completely with exploration or social. And you're given options you can choose to have. Some of those options work better for fighters, too, so it's not a one-to-one benefit for wizards.
 

Prestidigitation is a clever player’s dream. There are videos of 101 ways you can use Shape Water, including creating ice ladders and instant rafts. You can do even more with Minor Illusion. None of these take spell slots.
my warlock had prestidigitation, thaumaturgy, Druidcraft and minor illusion and those 4 cantrips alone could have been a full characters worth of cool stuff... add in primal savagry, toll the dead for combat and some elemental fun ones and you have just from atwills more then enough to go toe to toe with any non caster (and with this mix most casters)
now this DID cost me a feat and my pact boon. (Primal savagry, druid craft, and cure wounds all came from a feat)


Familiars also have tons of uses. They can scout, they can keep watch, they can give advantage on attacks.
yup... had a PC make a deal with an IMP and get the 'cast on a' instead of the 'summon' variety and between the magic resistance and the extra umph that imp gave it was amazing.
 

In this scenario. Same idea if it was a druid and wizard who prepared nothing for monstrosities. But that doesn't mean wizards are better than druids.

If it was something that required a strength check, like pulling a stuck lever or pushing aside a boulder, then the fighter would have a clear and distinct advantage.
no they wouldn't it comes down to stats...

a fighter gets nothing to help lift/pull at all... just stats. now the druid from a moment ago can dump stat and turn into something to get strength though
But only the ones in their spellbook, which only adds spells through DM fiat or leveling up. If the wizard never chooses it as a level-up option, they won't be preparing it mid-adventure.
and the wizard gets 2 new choices every level... how many can fighters pick?
Is it weird that a wizard would try to use their action for something other than damage? In fact, it's often argued the wizard's combat niche is specifically non-damage effects.
no it's weird that you pigion holed "I have no idea what I am doing and just pick spell at random" on to the wizard.
They have lower AC and HP.
wait... says who?

on average the fighter has 2hp more then the wizard/sorcerer (and 1hp per level better then any other non d10 full caster) if they both have equal con scores... and AC is totally build and equipment dependent.
And since they're surprised, they can't use a reaction or first-round buff to mitigate incoming attacks.
neither can the fighter
Fighters needn't activate any of their defensive abilities. That's the power of resourceless passives.
the only options I see on a fighter are parry, defensive fighting style and two weapon fighting feats... 1 requires activation, 2 require weapons (and if surprised no weapon at the ready)
But that's not all a fighter can do, that's just what the class itself provides a character.
correct and as such the things that are different then other classes...
But a fighter character can also create clockwork devices, communicate with small and smaller beasts, attempt hiding in light rain, fog, etc. Not to mention they do have a small catalog of spells they can acquire without a spellcasting subclass.
so can ANY OTHER CLASS
And while these are afford to other characters as well, that still gives the fighter character options.
just not ones to a fighter
Potentially better-used than if the wizard had them.
based on what?
Considering martials use ability checks more often than wizards, a halfling's lucky has more opportunities to be useful for a fighter.
wait what?!? what metric are we using to detriment how many d20s we roll for a given class?
What I'm trying to say is that choosing to be a fighter doesn't mean you choose to disengage completely with exploration or social.
yes and everything you mentioned a BARD, or a DRUID, or a WIZARD can do... but (this is the important part) the other classes get 1st-9th levvel spells ALSO... in addition
And you're given options you can choose to have. Some of those options work better for fighters, too, so it's not a one-to-one benefit for wizards.
what works better for fighters then a full caster?
 

no they wouldn't it comes down to stats...

a fighter gets nothing to help lift/pull at all... just stats. now the druid from a moment ago can dump stat and turn into something to get strength though

and the wizard gets 2 new choices every level... how many can fighters pick?

no it's weird that you pigion holed "I have no idea what I am doing and just pick spell at random" on to the wizard.

wait... says who?

on average the fighter has 2hp more then the wizard/sorcerer (and 1hp per level better then any other non d10 full caster) if they both have equal con scores... and AC is totally build and equipment dependent.

neither can the fighter

the only options I see on a fighter are parry, defensive fighting style and two weapon fighting feats... 1 requires activation, 2 require weapons (and if surprised no weapon at the ready)

correct and as such the things that are different then other classes...

so can ANY OTHER CLASS

just not ones to a fighter

based on what?

wait what?!? what metric are we using to detriment how many d20s we roll for a given class?

yes and everything you mentioned a BARD, or a DRUID, or a WIZARD can do... but (this is the important part) the other classes get 1st-9th levvel spells ALSO... in addition

what works better for fighters then a full caster?
The passive benefit they are referring to with respect to AC is armor proficiency. It is build dependent, but on average fighters do get easier access to passive AC increases (though this is a trivially easy feature to poach via multiclassing, in some instances without giving up much spellcasting progression)

As it relates to strength check capabilities, there's kind of a whole cottage industry of spells to replicate or replace the "strongman" built fighter (which is not every fighter). Enhance Ability, Skill Empowerment, Bigbys Hand, and Telekinesis all do so more or less directly. A wide variety of mobility related spells do so indirectly. These are active vs passive and have a cost attached, but they are also frequently waaay better tools than raw strength stat + proficiency.

Basically (some) fighters have a basic claw hammer which they can swing all day. Wizards have a trailer that can hold some jackhammers, impact drivers, nail guns, etc. They just need to make space in the trailer and remember the battery packs.

The fighter doesn't have that trailer though..they just have a hammer.
 

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