D&D (2024) What older setting do you want to see next?

[Remathilis]

it is the evil paradox we can't show them doing evil but we also need evil so we have things to fight, it kinda makes creating stakes and conflicts hard.

That's really my problem with this: it's fine to present topics like slavery or genocide or fascism or religious fanaticism in a way that does not glorify or justify it, but I feel we're reaching a point where even the mention of the topic will be deemed offensive, even when in a negative light. This isn't a trigger warning, this is sanitized for your protection.

Fiction (of which gaming is part) allows for exploration of topics removed from their historical context for exactly that reason. The Daleks in Doctor Who were developed to be Space Nazis bent on genocide of everything not a dalek and have killed other Daleks due to impurity. They are irredeemable, always Chaotic Evil and even the few "good ones" would hardly be called saints. They must be opposed, even to the point that the normally pacifist Doctor contemplated his own genocide of them twice at different points of his life. They are fascinating for a species and cannot be identified with on any level.

They also break every rule in modern fiction: a human-like race that was mutated by a megalomaniac mad scientist "creator god" , is Always Chaotic Evil unless something messes with their programming, and is hell-bent on genocide and obsessed with racial purity and supremacy is no longer acceptable, if I'm reading the room right. Not even to show how aberrant such ideologies are, the concepts alone are unacceptable to discuss. The Evil of the Daleks reduced to a simple cartoon version of Evil for Evil's sake, without motivation or explanation.

Anyway, I guess this has moved far from the topic so I'll let this drop.

 

[Whizbang Dustyboots]

That's really my problem with this: it's fine to present topics like slavery or genocide or fascism or religious fanaticism in a way that does not glorify or justify it, but I feel we're reaching a point where even the mention of the topic will be deemed offensive, even when in a negative light.

I think we're at the point where people are saying this is the case, without actual incidents of it occurring.

No one gives a crap if you want to fight Nazis. No one is mad if you are killing slavers. No one clutches their pearls if you take on fanaticism or fascism.

Please see the popular and critical acclaim for The Man in the High Castle, Django Unchained, The Boys and The Handmaiden's Tale for details.

No one would be upset if Dark Sun came back and some of the enemies PCs were intended to fight and probably kill were slavers. There is no "but think of the slavers!" lobby out there arguing that the slavers' point of view isn't being taken into account. At least, no one anyone else takes seriously.

This whole tangent is an exceptionally weird argument for people to be making and, if I didn't know better, I would say it's a disingenuous one.

 

[Haplo781]

Just a few hours left to get your votes in!

 

[Blue Orange]

(deleted to keep this thread from turning into 'name your least favorite RPG')

 

[Parmandur]

I think we're at the point where people are saying this is the case, without actual incidents of it occurring.

No one gives a crap if you want to fight Nazis. No one is mad if you are killing slavers. No one clutches their pearls if you take on fanaticism or fascism.

Please see the popular and critical acclaim for The Man in the High Castle, Django Unchained, The Boys and The Handmaiden's Tale for details.

No one would be upset if Dark Sun came back and some of the enemies PCs were intended to fight and probably kill were slavers. There is no "but think of the slavers!" lobby out there arguing that the slavers' point of view isn't being taken into account. At least, no one anyone else takes seriously.

This whole tangent is an exceptionally weird argument for people to be making and, if I didn't know better, I would say it's a disingenuous one.

The problematic part isn't the Scarlet Brotherhood are around, or that the Suel Empire was terrible, it's the fake 19th century style ethnography which is beyond being "unfashionable" is mimicking discredited and unscientific views about how human populations and demographics work. The Forgotten Realms has an advantage here in yhat Ed Greenwood didn't really do thst sort of deep dive into ethnography, so it didn't age poorly there.

 

[Bupp]

I think I'm at the point that I want pineapple on my hot dog and ketchup on my pizza.

 

[Blue Orange]

The problematic part isn't the Scarlet Brotherhood are around, or that the Suel Empire was terrible, it's the fake 19th century style ethnography which is beyond being "unfashionable" is mimicking discredited and unscientific views about how human populations and demographics work. The Forgotten Realms has an advantage here in yhat Ed Greenwood didn't really do thst sort of deep dive into ethnography, so it didn't age poorly there.

So it reminds people of nasty 1920s-style racist ethnographies so people see it as problematic? You know, I could see that--Gygax was definitely going for a pseudoacademic 'false document' style, and if the texts he's imitating are now considered bad, well, it would give people the willies.

 

[Yaarel]

The problematic part isn't the Scarlet Brotherhood are around, or that the Suel Empire was terrible, it's the fake 19th century style ethnography which is beyond being "unfashionable" is mimicking discredited and unscientific views about how human populations and demographics work. The Forgotten Realms has an advantage here in yhat Ed Greenwood didn't really do thst sort of deep dive into ethnography, so it didn't age poorly there.

Racism including N*zism are demonic, sotospeak.

It matters if recognizable reallife ethnicities are being demonized ingame.

 

[Remathilis]

So it reminds people of nasty 1920s-style racist ethnographies so people see it as problematic? You know, I could see that--Gygax was definitely going for a pseudoacademic 'false document' style, and if the texts he's imitating are now considered bad, well, it would give people the willies.

So to loop this around to the main point again, is this something so ingrained in Oerth that it cannot be ignored or changed without irreparable harm to the setting? Do we get rid of the Scarlet Brotherhood, do we just never mention the ethnic origins of the Suel again, or is it so tainted by the past that Greyhawk itself is unsalvageable?

 

[Blue Orange]

So to loop this around to the main point again, is this something so ingrained in Oerth that it cannot be ignored or changed without irreparable harm to the setting? Do we get rid of the Scarlet Brotherhood, do we just never mention the ethnic origins of the Suel again, or is it so tainted by the past that Greyhawk itself is unsalvageable?

Agreed. Yeah, I think you could turn them into demon worshippers or something.

I think the bigger problem is that it's not distinct enough from standard fantasy and it has a relatively small, older fanbase--but one that might pony up for an expensive 'special edition' with full color, etc. You could probably even find some of the original artists--Erol Otus is working again.