D&D General 6-8 encounters (combat?)

[Horwath]

deadly encounter->short rest->deadly encounter->short rest->deadly encounter->long rest

 

[aco175]

I'll echo what @Gadget said about using resources and if the other pillars use things like spell slots and HP, then they should count.

I also find the adventuring day includes a short rest or two that is meant to regain HP and abilities.

There is also the point about normal PCs and optimized PCs. I would think most people on this site make good if not great PCs.

 

[Art Waring]

The whole encounter system has some problems, CR doesn't work quite right. I've learned to make my own way forward, but 6-8 is typically high for an average session. I have run sessions with the expected 6+ encounters, but they are often one-shot gauntlet-style games, altgough running them is quite fun.

 

[GMforPowergamers]

But how is it an issue? So what if they only use resources on 5 out of 8 encounters?

what I get told all the time (and the premise of this thread is all about) is that the reason my group (and many others) don't find a balanced set of encounters between at will/short rest and long rest classes (lets be honest caster/noncaster cause the warlock is closer to sorcerer then to fighter) is because we are not truly playing 'right' with 6-8 encounters...

so if we have 8 encounter day (lets say with 6h level characters a fighter, a rogue, a cleric, a wizard and a bard), and the 1st two of the day are social (lets say talking to a merchant to get a map then to a guide to get to a dungeon)and everyone uses either short rest or non expendable resources then we take a short rest... then we have 2 exploration (lets say finding the entrance then unlocking a locked trapped door) and the 1st one no one uses any resources and the second 1 of the spellcasters uses a single spell to bypass it... no lets say 2 of the casters 1 casts find traps the other knock... then we get a short rest again, and now on this one the wizard gets his knock back. That is half way through the day, the spell casters each had 1 'big moment' and the cleric is down 1 spell slot... 4 to go, and we will say they are all combat from here on out. Now if what I was told is true the rogue and the fighter should shine... because by now the casters should be down on spells... but if the 1st combat we say the wizard and cleric don't use much (say 1 or 2 spells each) and the bard doesn't use any (since he has 2 attacks like the fighter) and the rogue and fighter both do slightly more damage... the 2nd fight the wizard uses a 1st level tasha's laugh and targets a weak wis save creature, and the cleric uses an upcast hold person to grab 2 orcs and hold them... and ends the fight round 1. 2 fights to go the wizard is down 3 spells and the cleric 4... we will say the bard is down 3 or 4 as well... unless you have 10+ round fights none of the casters are 'out of spells' in the next two encounters. Heck you could go PAST 8 encounters and not have the casters run out... and if during those last 4 encounter you don't get a short rest (in dungeon with orcs and ogers no hour) then the fighter basically has second wind and action surge are basically the same 'daily' as any 3rd level spell the 3 full casters have.

 

[GMforPowergamers]

The 6-8 medium encounter budget is based on combat encounters, but what really matters is the resources those encounters use up. If you go with, say, 3-4 combat and 1-2 exploration and 1-2 social, you will be behind that benchmark, unless those exploration and social encounters consume approximately as many resources as a Medium encounter would.

it gets worse when you have 6 encounters and none are combat... the fighter basically gets no help from his class. (three weeks ago in a game I play not run we had 8 or 9 depending on how you count them and only 1 was combat... a fighter would have been SOL for that game session...)

 

[GMforPowergamers]

I get what you're saying about 'narrative' but the mechanical reality of 5E is that the classes are balanced around getting 2-3 short rests per long rest, and roughly 6 or so encounters per adventuring day (however long that may be, depending on which rest variant you're using).

but how is that possible? what short rest mechanic does the fighter or rogue have that equals 3rd or 4th level spells? let alone 6th+? even just 1st level spell can lock an oppenet down, force a social encounter into treating you as a friend, or allow a weak person to jump 3x there distance... at 2nd level you can walk on walls or cealings lock down another enemy or levitate up instead of climb.... and through all of this all the classes have backgrounds that give them skills... so nothing stops the caster from being a criminal and haveing stealth and theives tools.

The classes balance at roughly 2 encounters per short rest, and roughly 2-3 short rests per long rest. Some classes rely on (weaker) short rest resources, while some rely on (stronger) long rest resources. Wizards and Paladins rule on single encounter adventuring days, but Fighters and Warlocks rule on longer ones, with plenty of short rests thrown in.

as I have now shown with 2 examples this ONLY works if those long rest classes run out of resources.

You can always adjust the mechanics to fit the narrative remember (gritty rest variant etc).

 

[GMforPowergamers]

Players certainly accept this reality. Give them a chance and they'll abuse the 5MWD every chance they get.

how is it abuse when you said

It doesnt have to use resources to be an encounter (indeed, a player sidestepping an encounter with a social skill use, and good roleplaying is to be encouraged).

 

[GMforPowergamers]

The 6-8 encounter advice is based on the expected resources expended in a Medium combat encounter. No, an encounter doesn’t have to consume resources to count as an encounter, but resource expenditure is what this balance assumption is built around.

and again my issue is if the fighter or rogue can use skills and rp to get through something so can a wizard or cleric and bard...excapt when the fighter does it that is all the fighter has, when the wizard or cleric does they still get full casting suit. When the rouge leverages there expertise that IS the big class feature, when the Bard leverages there expertise they are just saving there BIG class feature for later

 

[GMforPowergamers]

I'd forget that guidance. It seems like a bunch of internet theory-crafting to me.

yes it appears to me to not work but I was hopeing someone could show me how it works...

 

[GMforPowergamers]

deadly encounter->short rest->deadly encounter->short rest->deadly encounter->long rest

that is closer to what we run... but in doing so we find casters dwarf non casters after only a few levels