D&D 5E D&D Next playtest post mortem by Mike Mearls and Rodney Thompson. From seven years ago.

[darjr]

@Emrikol Basic did also get just as complicated. Sure not in the first box but that was only for a few levels.

 

[Emirikol]

I had looked at the chart wrong. So nearly 40/60--and we dont really know who bought both. Ben Riggs sales data is something that will probably influence how we look at next edition as well.

Do we know if 5e was designed with sales data in mind or was it just those people that bothered to give playtest data?

I'm really enjoying this topic btw.

 

[darjr]

I had looked at the chart wrong. So nearly 40/60--and we dont really know who bought both. Ben Riggs sales data is something that will probably influence how we look at next edition as well.

Do we know if 5e was designed with sales data in mind or was it just those people that bothered to give playtest data?

I'm really enjoying this topic btw.

I think sales data was, in fact I think the nostalgia play for 5e was for Basic D&D

 

[GMforPowergamers]

I don't know that it need be a feat... my argument is to decouple attacks from locked in stats. You can use ANY stat for ANY attack...

"I am super perceptive and can place my blows in weak spot... yes even rocks have vulnerable spots" wis attacks
"I have spent as much time studying combat as the wizard has magic, I know what you will do before you do and counter it" int attacks
"What I lack in power I make up for in cunning and bravado, and I can mesmerize with my movements" cha attacks
Dex and Str should be obvious... and someone up thread gave a Con as just bulling into things pushing beyond and not caring if you get hurt... I still see Con as the one that needs the most work.

new idea imagine attack vulnerabilities (I suck at naming things)

This monster has easy tell's and as such if you make a wis attack you have advantage
this monster has a brittal carapice so you get advantage on str or con attacks

and attack resilience's
This monster is super fast, dex based attacks are at disadvantage
this monster has no weak spots int and wis attacks are at disadvantage
this is a mindless monster cha attacks have disadvantage...

now that REALLY gives some tactical choice.

Imagine "I have a 17 Wis and almost always use it to attack but Str attacks get advantage and I do have a 14 str" or " I have a 17 Dex and almost always use it to attack but dex attacks have disadvantage so I will switch to my cha attacks even though it's only a 14"

 

[Oofta]

So, the first picture is representative of which D&D trope or art exactly?

For the sake of argument, we'll say this was a reasonable comparison to anything that actually corresponds in some way to D&D. Assuming that...he can still be a competent warrior. His player just needs to have selected an appropriate casting subclass.

These subclasses' supporting themes..
"Song and dance" and
"Extra-special magic weapon"

And use of an analytical warrior trope seems unreasonable? Or put another way..which character art suggests "dumb" as an expected character attribute?

Edit: Realized I could simplify..

What about any PHB D&D character art suggests that anyone can accurately identify mental stats for the depicted characters?

I have no idea what the mental stats of the guy that the typical teen I found was and it's not relevant in any case. The point was that looking at the two images, a typical non-jock teen and of a buffed out and muscular dude, the common understanding is that the latter is going to be a kick ass fighter and the former is going to get their ass kicked. It's like expecting Sheldon from The Big Bang Theory to win a fight against Mike Tyson.

I know there's the whole "intelligence is a superpower" trope, but when it comes to physical fighting (no magic or supernatural ability) Arthur Conan Doyle's depiction of Sherlock is an incredibly rare exception. It makes even less sense for abilities like charisma.

Feel free to disagree.

 

[Oofta]

I consider this a failure, and I suspect WOTC does as well given they changed the monster calculus in later books. But it sounds like they worked hard on it. They also implied the entire thing isn't in the DMG because it was too complicated, and the DMG version is a more simplified one.

I've wondered if they didn't tweak the formula after the MM was completed but before the DMG was completed. The MM was released in September the DMG wasn't released until December. When I've built custom monsters using the guidelines, they come out quite a bit tougher than what we have in the MM.

 

[GMforPowergamers]

I have no idea what the mental stats of the guy that the typical teen I found was and it's not relevant in any case. The point was that looking at the two images, a typical non-jock teen and of a buffed out and muscular dude, the common understanding is that the latter is going to be a kick ass fighter and the former is going to get their ass kicked. It's like expecting Sheldon from The Big Bang Theory to win a fight against Mike Tyson.

Sheldon isn't trained to fight... give someone with that body training and give someone with mike tyson's build no training and see how it changes.

I know there's the whole "intelligence is a superpower" trope, but when it comes to physical fighting (no magic or supernatural ability) Arthur Conan Doyle's depiction of Sherlock is an incredibly rare exception. It makes even less sense for abilities like charisma.

Feel free to disagree.

I do. IN the real world YES if all else is equal bet on the big guy... but training trumps strength 90% of the time, speed CAN trump strength if the training is close (even if the stronger is trained better)

If you take a body builder who hasn't been in a fight since the one he lost in 6th grade, and weight 300lbs, and an ex line backer MMA fighter that weight 300lbs then the skill is all that matters... change out the MMA heavy weight for an MMA light weight at half that weight (just googles that is 125lb-140lbs) and no one is betting on the 'never been in the fight but weighs 2 of him" guy

 

[GMforPowergamers]

I've wondered if they didn't tweak the formula after the MM was completed but before the DMG was completed. The MM was released in September the DMG wasn't released until December. When I've built custom monsters using the guidelines, they come out quite a bit tougher than what we have in the MM.

something we 100% agree on

 

[Gammadoodler]

I have no idea what the mental stats of the guy that the typical teen I found was and it's not relevant in any case. The point was that looking at the two images, a typical non-jock teen and of a buffed out and muscular dude, the common understanding is that the latter is going to be a kick ass fighter and the former is going to get their ass kicked. It's like expecting Sheldon from The Big Bang Theory to win a fight against Mike Tyson.

I know there's the whole "intelligence is a superpower" trope, but when it comes to physical fighting (no magic or supernatural ability) Arthur Conan Doyle's depiction of Sherlock is an incredibly rare exception. It makes even less sense for abilities like charisma.

Feel free to disagree.

The point you made was that "art and tropes matter". You have, thus far, failed to indicate what existing art or tropes would be contradicted by fighters whose mental stats contribute to their success in combat.

 

[Ancalagon]

Yeah, you need to establish who is being truthful, what percentages belong to which groups, and if you're testing for something very specific, that you're actually valuing people who truly care about that specific thing over everyone else. None of which WotC did in their poll design in Next.

how would you evaluate the current survey?