D&D 5E The Decrease in Desire for Magic in D&D

[Lanefan]

No, he absolutely was not, and if you take even a moment to spool out what he's saying his statements make no sense whatsoever. He is exploiting an equivocation fallacy to make something that sounds profound when it is not.

First, if we make the same argument using other qualities, it clearly becomes gibberish: "if all food is tasty, the no food is tasty." "If all goods is expensive, then no goods are expensive." "If everyone is happy, then no one will be happy." These all have only one relevant sense, and thus the statement is obviously ludicrous.

Allow me, please, to restate your words here with a few others added in that I hope will make my point more clear:

"if all food is tasty, the no food is special because it is tasty." "If all goods is expensive, then no goods are special because they are expensive." "If everyone is happy, then no one will be special because of being happy."

Second, if we nail down a single meaning of "special," it becomes just like the above statements. He is exploiting the difference between "special" meaning "unique, unlike any other, unusual, stand out" and "powerful, capable, able to do significant things."

Not quite. In fact, he's saying they are the same; that being "powerful, capable, able to do significant things" is special and that if everyone could be that then no-one would be special in that way.

"If everyone is unique, then no one is unique" is clearly false.

Again, not when you add in the missing words. "If everyone is unique, then no-one is special because of being unique" is true.

Having a collection where no two members are alike does not suddenly make all of them identical, and it is ludicrous to suggest otherwise. Likewise, "if everyone is powerful, then no one is powerful" is clearly false.

Those same words are missing again. If everyone is powerful, then no-one is special because of being powerful.

Having power does not automatically mean others have less power; the ability to take actions, even significant ones, does not deny others the ability to also take significant actions. It isn't a zero sum game.

The overall power level isn't zero-sum. If everyone is powerful instead of just a few people then the overall power level of society goes way up; but at the same time the specialness of being powerful goes way down.

Nope. As I said, my thermos cup is special to me, despite being perfectly identical to every other thermos cup of its make. It is not the disparity, but the utility that makes it special to me.

Likewise, a rose can be incredibly special even if it is essentially identical to all other roses.

Special to you, but that's entirely subjective. Your thermos cup is very likely not special at all when compared to all the other thermos cups.

So the only way for people to be special is for them to live in a stratified society where others are forcibly kept "beneath" them? Bull feces. People can be special, appreciated, for an enormous variety of reasons, and disparity (particularly crappy enforced disparity) doesn't ever need to be one of them. Indeed, eliminating unnecessary disparity has helped us embrace human specialness in Western culture in a way that the enforced stratification of our forebears could not.

Sigh. This is a misreading of what I'm trying to say, so let me try again.

"Special" exists toward both ends of any bell curve you can think of. "Not-special" is what you find in the mushy middle of those bell-curves. Taking the mushy middle and trying to drag it to one end of a bell curve, which is what Syndrome was trying to do with superpowers, makes what was once special at that end of that bell curve now not-special; it becomes part of the mushy middle.

In D&D, using fixed-array instead of random roll for generating a character's stats tends to force characters toward this mushy middle; and in random roll getting an 18 - or even two of them - is special. But if the rules were to change such that every character started with all 18s then - very much unlike now - there would be nothing special about starting with all 18s; and it would instead be a special character who somehow started with a 10 somewhere.

 

[Bill Zebub]

We are not in "the real world."

We are in the world where dragons exist, mages bend/break reality by talking at it, and barbarians shrug off blows due to sheer manliness.

Yeah, sure, if you want to give your non-magical humans a non-realistic ability in your fantasy world, that's cool. Not arguing with that. I let my fantasy humans carry an unrealistic amount of crap in their backpacks because I think it makes the game more fun.

I'm only disputing the idea that lie detection via Insight is a realistic thing.

 

[Lanefan]

Not to resurrect the whole martial vs. magical argument, but:

At what level should a ranger be able (or alternatively, what skill checks does a PC of any class need to make) to create a 10-foot radius safe shelter in the wilderness that: (a) cannot be entered (or visually detected, if that is more plausible) by creatures outside it; (b) is well-lit and comfortable, regardless of weather conditions outside?

Extremely high, if ever, IMO

Same goes for the mage.

 

[tetrasodium]

Not to resurrect the whole martial vs. magical argument, but:

At what level should a ranger be able (or alternatively, what skill checks does a PC of any class need to make) to create a 10-foot radius safe shelter in the wilderness that: (a) cannot be entered (or visually detected, if that is more plausible) by creatures outside it; (b) is well-lit and comfortable, regardless of weather conditions outside?

a1:
What? why not? Why can't it be entered?
A2: "can't be visually detected"

Spoiler: does it stop this version of spider sense?

Spider-Sense​

Spider-Man is able to sense danger lurking near, the warning signal coming as a pain in his head that varies with the intensity of the threat. Spiders can detect danger coming their way with an early-warning system called eyes. You probably expected that. But that’s not all: their most important source of information about the world and its hazards comes from highly sensitive hairs that cover the bodies of most spiders. These hairs perceive even low-level vibrations coming through whatever surface a spider is standing on. Many species also bear hairs that sense vibrations in the air, including sound.

National wildlife federation "Spider Sense"

I'm going to go with "probably never" or assume you were attempting to describe something different than described. That's macguffin & eldritch machine level blanket powers

 

[Cadence]

a1:
What? why not? Why can't it be entered?
A2: "can't be visually detected"

Spoiler: does it stop this version of spider sense?

Spider-Sense​

Spider-Man is able to sense danger lurking near, the warning signal coming as a pain in his head that varies with the intensity of the threat. Spiders can detect danger coming their way with an early-warning system called eyes. You probably expected that. But that’s not all: their most important source of information about the world and its hazards comes from highly sensitive hairs that cover the bodies of most spiders. These hairs perceive even low-level vibrations coming through whatever surface a spider is standing on. Many species also bear hairs that sense vibrations in the air, including sound.

National wildlife federation "Spider Sense"

I'm going to go with "probably never" or assume you were attempting to describe something different than described. That's macguffin & eldritch machine level blanket powers

As I am lead to understand, eventually that ranger - just using his martial prowess - should be able to hold his breath for three days of swimming and fighting, chop the top off of mountains, etc... and medal in all of the Olympic swimming and track and field events while wearing a poorly balanced 200+ pound backpack all on the same day.

Why do you, ::: checks notes ::: hate martials and need to make everything a spell?

 

[Mort]

I'm only disputing the idea that lie detection via Insight is a realistic thing.

And I'm saying putting skills against a "realistic" backdrop IS the problem and leads right back to non-casters can't have nice things.

I mean here we are discussing an example right from the phb "Your Wisdom (Insight) check decides whether you can determine the true intentions of a creature, such as when searching out a lie or predicting someone’s next move..."

And yet "but it's just not realistic" STILL makes it difficult for non-casters because "you may do that in YOUR game but not in MY game..."

 

[Garthanos]

Not trying to be rude but I am honestly unable to process what you're even trying to say here. It just seems contradictory and confused. Like what are we talking about with "NPCs offering powerful healing potions/cure items"? Like what is that? That's not something from 5E. That's maybe a 3.XE/PF thing? Arguably?

Or something the DM wants the NPCs to be involved in.
However to me one needs to level up what powerful means.

For instance what if that potion/cure item is something that rejuvenates restoring in moments like you took a short rest. (in 4e such an item would help all classes). Some will go yes sign me up how much does this cost and do I need to kill more unicorns for you to make me more?

 

[Bill Zebub]

And I'm saying putting skills against a "realistic" backdrop IS the problem and leads right back to non-casters can't have nice things.

Ok, that's fair. I don't agree, but I understand that point of view.

I mean here we are discussing an example right from the phb "Your Wisdom (Insight) check decides whether you can determine the true intentions of a creature, such as when searching out a lie or predicting someone’s next move..."

Notice it doesn't actually say "you can tell if they are lying" just what their intentions are.

Look, I know I'm in a very, very, very slim minority on this one. I just don't think it adds anything to the game to enable lie detection as an at-will, zero-cost action declaration. At the very least I would hope DMs enforce the caveat that in order to make a dice roll, there has to be a meaningful consequence to failure. So it could be, "I'll try to trap him into contradicting himself, to see if he is lying." "Ok, but if you fail he's going to know what you are doing and will be pissed."

 

[Mort]

Ok, that's fair. I don't agree, but I understand that point of view.



Notice it doesn't actually say "you can tell if they are lying" just what their intentions are.

Look, I know I'm in a very, very, very slim minority on this one. I just don't think it adds anything to the game to enable lie detection as an at-will, zero-cost action declaration. At the very least I would hope DMs enforce the caveat that in order to make a dice roll, there has to be a meaningful consequence to failure. So it could be, "I'll try to trap him into contradicting himself, to see if he is lying." "Ok, but if you fail he's going to know what you are doing and will be pissed."

It's not 0 cost.

You have to make a skill check and if you fail you might get a completely false reading. Or you might succeed but piss of the target. And there is a counter skill, which a decent percentage of opponents will have (especially in an intrigue heavy campaign).

Which is STILL more risky than the magic version which either you get the truth or an evasive target.

 

[tetrasodium]

And I'm saying putting skills against a "realistic" backdrop IS the problem and leads right back to non-casters can't have nice things.

I mean here we are discussing an example right from the phb "Your Wisdom (Insight) check decides whether you can determine the true intentions of a creature, such as when searching out a lie or predicting someone’s next move..."

And yet "but it's just not realistic" STILL makes it difficult for non-casters because "you may do that in YOUR game but not in MY game..."

The trouble isn't that the insight skill isn't "realistic". The trouble is that what it enabvles is the same thing that "dust" in babylon5 enables but it's more aptly named there