D&D 5E Discussing Worldbuilding: Why Don't The Mages Take Over The World?

Oofta

Legend
But the aristocracy would be paranoid that the mages would overthrow them (because mages have more power than they would). So in that situation, either the mages eventually overthrow the aristocracy and become the new aristocracy, the aristocracy learns magic in order to maintain their power (Bard/Wizard school, selling their soul/children to become a Warlock, etc), or the aristocracy has a non-core 5e way of controlling the mages.

I'm not saying a single casting of Suggestion would let you take over the nation. I'm saying that court mages periodically using Suggestion to change the monarch's position on a certain issue would let them control the government. Also, Mind Blank is an 8th level spell. Suggestion is just 2nd level. Mind Blank would require a 15th-level spellcaster repeatedly casting the spell on you in order to protect a non-mage from their mage servants.

I'll say it again: Unless the government leaders had some way to protect themselves against magic or control mages, the mages could easily and would eventually take control of the government (even if they don't do it obviously and just control the leaders through magic and blackmail).

Can people be born skilled hackers? Can those skilled hackers somehow hack into people's brains and mind control them (even if temporarily)? Can that hacker that learned your secrets and is blackmailing you also spontaneously combust you if you don't do what they want you to do? If you answer no to any of these questions, this is a bad analogy. There is a major difference between the capabilities of mages and hackers/warriors.

You're missing my point. I'm not saying that I want every form of government in every world to be some form of magocracy. This thread is a thought experiment meant to help worldbuilding and encourage critical thinking. I am absolutely okay with settings where mages don't rule everything. I like Ravenloft quite a bit, and most of its "rulers" aren't mages. They're just terrible people from throughout the Multiverse that the Dark Powers decided to condemn to eternal(ish) damnation for unknown reasons. Ravenloft has a very valid explanation for why not all of its domains of dread are ruled by mages: because mages don't have a choice in the matter. The godlike Dark Powers choose the Dark Lords of Ravenloft. There is a strong limitation on the political capabilities of mages in Ravenloft, so the "mages aren't in control of everything" is a very justified trope in the setting, just like it is in Dragon Age.

This thread is meant to point out that if left unchecked, mages will take control of basically everything. This is a fact. It's inevitable. They will take control eventually, and if they don't, the setting either ignores this fact or chose to introduce some factor to justify why they haven't yet. The Mutants in X-Men haven't taken over yet because a) Mutants are relatively new to the world and b) other heroes prevent Magneto from taking over. If the world isn't largely controlled by mages, there should be an explanation. And I think finding those explanations can be really interesting and great for making the world feel more dynamic and real.

That's the point of this thread. To encourage making the worlds feel more real. Not encouraging people to add more Magocracies in their settings, but to explore the fact that they probably haven't taken control of everything yet for a variety of reasons.

People know they've been affected by magic such as charm or suggestion. Having your mind manipulated tends to pass people off. Pass off the king and the odds of your head remaining attached to the rest of your body drop dramatically.

Nothing is inevitable.
 

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Levistus's_Leviathan

5e Freelancer
People know they've been affected by magic such as charm or suggestion. Having your mind manipulated tends to pass people off. Pass off the king and the odds of your head remaining attached to the rest of your body drop dramatically.
Suggestion does not have the clause that states that they know that they're under the affects of the spell if they fail the saving throw. That's Charm Person.

There are also illusion/transmutation spells that would allow you to disguise yourself as the king flawlessly if you secretly overthrew him.
Nothing is inevitable.
Death, taxes, and people with power abusing their power are all inevitable. And, as stated in the OP, the whole point of this thought experiment is to brainstorm ways to avoid mages from taking over and enhance the world instead of dismissing the premise as stupid.
 

Levistus's_Leviathan

5e Freelancer
I think the rules for creating magic items don't say that you need to be a spellcaster to make them, at least the Xanathar's ones, so a non-spellcaster ruler could use those to help out against magic, I guess.

Wands of Magic Detection are absolutely essential. Although there's the handy Magic Aura spell to counter it, so not infallible.

Amulet of Proof Against Detection and Location, most definitely, attune it and never take it off.

Brooch of Shielding against annoying magic missile assassinations.

Broom of Flying so they don't have air-superiority.

Lantern of Revealing against invisibility spells.

Lantern of Tracking to know if there's summons nearby.

Not counting the general useful items, a lot of them could make up not having spellcasters for specific things.
Huh. I was sure you were wrong, but apparently, I was misremembering. Non-mages can absolutely create magic items, given that they have the proper ingredients (often taken from magical creatures or planar-warped areas/materials). So there could definitely be a faction in a world that hunts down magical monsters and create magic items in order to rival/counter spellcasters. Cool solution. I personally was thinking of leaning more into the idea of there being an ancient magocracy (similar to Netheril or Aeor) that fell due to hubris and that non-mages use magic items to control mages and keep them from taking over. However, that's an interesting idea as well.
 

Fanaelialae

Legend
"Sensible precautions"? Let's hear more about those! That's the entire point of this thread! Brainstorming how different worlds would work if mages had taken over and brainstorming precautions non-mages could take to prevent that. Please, go on!

You're mixing up Charm Person with Suggestion. So long as the person that you cast the spell on doesn't notice that you cast it (ala Subtle Spell), they don't know that they were Suggested. A Sorcerer with Subtle Spell could use Suggestion on a monarch without being noticed (so long as there isn't a Detect Magic spell up, which, again, would require another mage to cast).

I think that mages would be at least as likely to be power-hungry as typical humans are. And, again, I don't think it would be easy, at least not for individual mages. It would take time, trial-and-error, and the combined efforts of different people (royal bloodlines, aristocracy, religious institutions, etc).

Survival of the fittest. Power begets power. Unless there are enough of those "sensible precautions" you mentioned earlier, mages can and would take over because even though most mages might not be powerhungry, the ones that are would be able to take power.
Sensible precautions.

Cast detect magic on the ruler regularly to identify enchantments. This can also identify other potential issues, such as illusion or transmutation magic to mimic the ruler.

This doesn't even require a caster. Literally anyone with a wand of magic detection can do it. Which is merely an uncommon item, and therefore if the ruler can't easily afford a dozen of these, why would a mage even be interested in such a backwater?

Frankly, you could have numerous additional layers of protection on top of that, but that alone would be enough 99% of the time.

I assure you, I did not mix up charm person with suggestion. The suggestion needs to be spoken aloud to the target, and the suggestion lasts 8 hours (or until the caster stops concentrating).

Let's look at an example of a mage trying to influence policy:
King: There shall be no necromancy allowed in the kingdom henceforth!
Mage (suggestion using subtle spell): Your majesty, necromancy is a boon to the kingdom and dead peasants should be donated to the mages for study.
King: Belay that order! Henceforth all dead peasants shall be donated to the mages for their necromantic experimentation. For the empire!
...8 hours later...
King: Wait... Why would I say that!? That's abominable! 🤔🤔🤔 Guards! Behead the mage at once!

Even if the mage is a little more subtle about their suggestions, any ruler with a pair of braincells to rub together is going to notice a pattern if they think something is a bad idea, the mage makes a suggestion and suddenly they think it's a good idea, and then 8 hours later they think it's a bad idea.

Heck, here's another sensible precaution. Don't hire sorcerers as your mages. Wizards make more sense anyway. They're more intelligent and more flexible.

You're conflating hunger for political power with hunger for power. Sure, mages would be just as power hungry as everyone else. I'd even go so far as to say you might find a higher proportion of power hungry individuals among mages. But here's the thing. Mages can persue real power of the kind that politicians can only dream of. Therefore, it seems reasonable that they would spend their time in the pursuit of magical power rather than wasting it trying to obtain political power.

I mean, it seems like you're assuming that both mastery of magic and administration of a kingdom require zero effort from the mage at all. Which doesn't make sense. Both require significant dedication to be done well. Otherwise you'd have 20th level mages on every street corner. And if the mage just delegates away all of their authority to their advisors, I think there's a very real possibility the mage won't have a kingdom sooner than not, because the advisors will have administrated the kingdom out from under them.
 

beancounter

(I/Me/Mine)
Maybe you aren't understanding the question in the OP then.

Why can't spell casters have territory?

I agree, maintaining a kingdom is different than taking over the world, but the whole "take over the world" aspect is I think meant to be more "why aren't nearly all kingdoms run by spellcasters?" Not "why doesn't a single spellcaster own the entirety of the world?"

Because they are smart enough to avoid politics and let someone else do the dirty work while they have significant influence behind the scenes.
 

Levistus's_Leviathan

5e Freelancer
Because they are smart enough to avoid politics and let someone else do the dirty work while they have significant influence behind the scenes.
All spellcasters across the world are smart enough to avoid politics?

Oh, and so they have taken power, they're just doing it from behind the scenes. So you don't actually disagree with the premise of the thread.
 

doctorbadwolf

Heretic of The Seventh Circle
Given that magical beliefs have been with us since time immemorial, I think it's more likely that such a society would develop institutions to control the behavior of magic users. For those who haven't taken a sociology course in a long time, an institution is an "established practice, tradition, behavior, or system of roles and relationships that is considered a normative structure or arrangement within a society." The big five institutions are Government, Economy, Family, Education, and Religion.

The problem with creating such institutions in D&D (D&D especially), is that players hate, hate, hate having anyone tell them what to do. D&D is an adolescent power fantasy (which is fine), and in my experience most players aren't interested in having to follow societal rules. Which kind of makes creating institutions kind of pointless.
To me, that’s just a thing that informs how I use institutions. Antagonistic institutions are easy, but benevolent institutions can be extremely interesting as well. I love tension and conflict with between groups on the same side.
 

I think the reason D&D settings don't grasp with this is as a holdover of the early days of the game when arcane magic was exclusive to a handful of members of a single, wizardy "magic-user" class.

I think the traditional implied explanation of most fantasy settings and early D&D is that the high level spellcaster is basically some variation on a Wizard, an extraordinarily rare person and one usually geared towards scholarly pursuits or some other quest for esoteric knowledge. What interest does such a one have in everyday affairs of politics or economics? Their magic can give them a lifestyle to rival any prince and power over normal people would require conversing with normal people which is just a tedious affair for someone who spends their time thinking on big-brain wizard matters. Surely such a person could carve out an empire if they wanted to, but there are only a handful of such people in the world and only occasionally does one become perversely interested in wasting their time lording it over the non-magical community. Despite what Tears for Fears might claim, not everybody wants to rule the world.

This explanation holds reasonably well for many fantasy settings. It does not hold up at all for contemporary D&D settings where people with a smattering of magic are legion, and there are many paths to magic that don't involve being a huge nerd who probably can't relate to normal humans and just wants to be left alone. In a world with only a dozen great wizards it makes sense that none of them have deigned to try to take over. In a world where every wealthy family probably ships one of their children off to wizarding school it makes far less sense that none of these half interested students have worldly ambitions. And looking beyond that traditional "wizard" figure, D&D now has high magic being wielded by Sorcerers who just had magic thrust upon them, Bards who started down the magic path in part just to make a living, and Warlocks who, by definition, are people whose magical ambitions exceeded their commitment to studying. The lack of worldly ambition by any of these does require some actual worldbuilding to explain.
 

Zubatcarteira

Now you're infected by the Musical Doodle
Huh. I was sure you were wrong, but apparently, I was misremembering. Non-mages can absolutely create magic items, given that they have the proper ingredients (often taken from magical creatures or planar-warped areas/materials). So there could definitely be a faction in a world that hunts down magical monsters and create magic items in order to rival/counter spellcasters. Cool solution. I personally was thinking of leaning more into the idea of there being an ancient magocracy (similar to Netheril or Aeor) that fell due to hubris and that non-mages use magic items to control mages and keep them from taking over. However, that's an interesting idea as well.
It's a bit confusing since the DMG rules do say that you need to be a spellcaster, so it'd depend on which one the DM is using.
 

EzekielRaiden

Follower of the Way
"Sensible precautions"? Let's hear more about those! That's the entire point of this thread! Brainstorming how different worlds would work if mages had taken over and brainstorming precautions non-mages could take to prevent that. Please, go on!
Let's see...

  • Have guards, and actually treat them well
  • Honestly just treat people well in general, to cultivate a reputation of fairness (though you must avoid being known as soft: seek the people's love, but make sure they know not to cross you)
  • Have money and people who depend on you to get paid
  • Patronize others, particularly middling spellcasters who can do the flashy explosion magic but not necessarily the tricksy magic†
  • Keep more-limited spellcasters (especially clerics of trustworthy, prosocial deities) as retainers to protect you†
  • Secure the loyalty of the populace, or at least the bureaucracy, by treating them with respect
  • Restrict access to repositories of knowledge
  • Patronize education institutions so you can influence their curricula
  • Support sustainable environmental practices†
  • If necessary, establish a rapport with a selected set of warlock patrons, so they won't support overthrowing you (note, not the same as becoming a warlock for them! You can come to agreements without becoming a Warlock!)†
  • Keep the army and other military types on your side, and suppress large-scale mercenary activity
  • Monitor and control the flow of relevant materials and tools so you can limit access to things that could threaten you
  • Pass laws controlling the behavior of non-state-employed spellcasters, and exercise swift but fair authority over those who are state-employed†
Worth noting, other than the ones marked with a dagger, all of these literally did happen in Medieval Europe. Most of the ones that are so marked are pretty reasonable basic things, the equivalent of taking away the katanas if the samurai class or trying to be a pragmatic but enlightened ruler.

You're mixing up Charm Person with Suggestion. So long as the person that you cast the spell on doesn't notice that you cast it (ala Subtle Spell), they don't know that they were Suggested. A Sorcerer with Subtle Spell could use Suggestion on a monarch without being noticed (so long as there isn't a Detect Magic spell up, which, again, would require another mage to cast).
While you are correct that suggestion does not necessarily reveal itself...the suggestion provided has to actually be reasonable. That's not going to let you control very much. At all. Suggestion can be very useful, but it isn't actually mind control, and you will run into trouble if you mistake it for being actual mind control.

I think that mages would be at least as likely to be power-hungry as typical humans are.
But a significant number of humans aren't power-hungry. Many just want to live out a life without any desire for power. Even amongst those who do want power, they almost always want it for a reason, not for the power itself. E.g. the power to protect yourself or your loved ones, the power to heal someone dear to you who is sick, the power to earn enough money so you can just live however you want for the rest of your life, etc. Only the truly narcissistic desire power solely for its own sake, and it is not easy for such a person to just become a powerful spellcaster. See below; narcissism does not lend itself to accepting servitude or long-delayed gratification, but both things are required for most spellcaster classes.

And, again, I don't think it would be easy, at least not for individual mages. It would take time, trial-and-error, and the combined efforts of different people (royal bloodlines, aristocracy, religious institutions, etc).
Okay, but the more complicated and long-running you make it, the more you pull it away from "inevitable" and toward merely "plausible." You're already talking about having an existing social hierarchy and entrenched aristocracy ("royal bloodlines, aristocracy") and committed dogma that is very likely to oppose such concentration of power ("religious institutions"), and all of this coming from constellations of people across multiple generations. That's no longer a clean, slam-dunk "the power will always accumulate in this way and produce magocracies." Instead, it's at best showing that there would be a pressure here, a power bloc (or rather several such blocs) we don't see in our world.

But your reasoning is faulty, because you are reasoning from "if we inserted this power bloc into our world and changed absolutely nothing else, it would take over." It is that assumption right there, the assumption that "all else being equal," that leads you astray. Because all things would NOT be equal. We cannot assume that the body develops no resistance in a world that always had this additional threat.

Survival of the fittest. Power begets power. Unless there are enough of those "sensible precautions" you mentioned earlier, mages can and would take over because even though most mages might not be powerhungry, the ones that are would be able to take power.
Social darwinism is well debunked at this point, so basing the core of your argument upon it seems unwise.

You're correct that power often leads to accumulating power, but you neglect the conditions required for power to come about in the first place, and thus the restrictions on the path that might pull things away even before things get started. So, for instance, you have handwaved the "wizarding depends on a societal infrastructure that permits not-directly-productivr academics," which will already have an entrenched power structure to it, by rather airily saying that "oh people will just pursue Sorcerer or Warlock instead."

But what do those classes induce? Sorcerer isn't something you can just learn. It's an innate power. You have spoken disparagingly of people talking about not-defined-in-book ways of opposing magic, yet you base your argument in part on not-defined-in-book ways of gaining Sorcerer levels. As the fluff text explicitly says, "No one chooses sorcery; the power chooses the sorcerer." So we shouldn't make any arguments which depend on being a Sorcerer, nor on feats, since feats are only present by DM approval and NPCs definitionally need that approval to exist in the first place.

But Warlock suffers exactly the same problem as Cleric and Druid, the "external authority" issue. That is, a Cleric in 5e that gains temporal power is, properly speaking, either ruling as a proxy for their church, or as a proxy for their deity. Tyrant-spellcasters would have to deal with the consequences of the religion they've ties themselves to, and one of those things is that religions which are likely to have large numbers of loyal followers are not likely to be religions that support tyrants. Most popular religions are going to be at least vaguely Good-aligned, because most people recognize the social utility of joining a group that tells its members to be nice to each other. Further, defiance is likely to draw the ire of one's superiors, be they mortal or divine, and all organized religions worthy of the title police their own and take very, very dim views of deceit and power grabs within the hierarchy...especially if there's a god at the head.

Druids, if anything, have it worse because their lives are actively inhibited by the spiritual commitments they make. Unlike Clerics, who have no special requirements in behavioral terms unless their deity opts into it, Druids specifically have their very lifestyle dictated to them. They aren't allowed to engage in certain behaviors associated with "civilization," most notably wearing metal armor or using certain kinds of weapons. Yet they also don't have the luxury of looking for a patron that they would prefer to serve, e.g. one with a compatible or exploitable ideology, because there's only one Nature. They're simultaneously more limited in behavior and more limited in options, so there's no way a Druid is gaining such unlimited power without some real special circumstances.

(Note that these problems are over and above the problem of needing societal development in order to rise to power; the developmental-dependency is lower for Clerics and Druids than for Wizards, but it is definitely not zero.)

Which leads us to Warlocks. Warlock does avoid the problem of availability/societal development dependence: in theory, as long as there are powerful beings, there can be Warlocks. However, this arrangement is even more contractual and controlling than the Druid! You are literally signing over authority to your patron. They can't just pull the plug like they could with 3e Clerics, but your patron can and will punish you for breach of contract. You're pretty clearly under obligation. Further, Warlock is by far the weakest of the full casters. It cannot ever cast more than one of its level 6+ spells each day, and while it can cast a comparatively large number of 5th-or-lower spells, it cannot know more than a tiny handful thereof, radically reducing its power potential. The Warlock is simply not capable of reaching the phenomenal cosmic power you speak of as a requirement for your predicted "casters will inevitably take over." Their severely restricted spellcasting forces them to be incredibly economical, and being incredibly economical with your power does not bespeak of being able to throw one's weight around willy-nilly!

So...yeah. The Sorcerer cannot be opted into, it's a roll of the cosmic dice whether you even can do it or not and even if you can you're much more limited than other spellcasters. That randomness added to the complexity you already admitted above pretty well sinks any chance of true power accumulation by such a person. The Warlock is even more magically constrained than the Sorcerer, while also having patron interference and expectations of deference, and having to keep the true source of one's powers a secret or else risk immediate betrayal/opposition, adding yet further complications. Druid and Cleric come with all sorts of extremely limiting baggage and don't directly contribute to rulership stuff, and Wizard (as noted) depends on an already well-entrenched social order that permits relatively well-off people to spend their days holed up in s cloister and doing academic things for 20 years.

So, in sum, the forces you speak of are not nearly as inevitable as you imply, particularly if we account for them being part of the world from the beginning; the classes involved have several limitations, internal and external, which you are neglecting; perfectly ordinary measures taken to forestall others gaining power (many with actual historical precedent) would work quite well to mitigate this pressure; and you've largely pinned yourself to the Sorcerer as the class to get the job done, but that's the one class that cannot actually be relied upon in any meaningful way.

There is, of course, one debatable exception here: Bards. But what were bards considered IRL? The mythic ones had great power and zero desire to rule because they had more important things to do, like learning the true secrets of existence or satirizing the hell out of crappy kings. And the modern(ish) ones were widely seen as morally-destitute libertine layabouts....a reputation shared by many musicians and movie stars today. And how many modern actors or musicians go for fantastical power? Very few, despite explicitly having devout followings and the like. Astronauts do better than actors in most cases. And they are also a "spells known" class, though slightly less limited than Sorcerers.

So...yeah. Bards might be able to pull this off. Charisma, flexibility, somewhat lower limits, less need for formal training. But they've got social bias against them and share many of the problems that Wizards have with just not getting much out of temporal authority other than a big headache.
 
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