Dragonlance Dragonlance "Reimagined".

[GMforPowergamers]

Important point. There should NOT be a balance between helping people and harming them. If you believe that harming people is as important as helping them, you are evil.

yeah... I would LOVE to hear why we need evil to be as powerful as good.

 

[Fifth Element]

Kingpriest THOUGHT he was doing good though

So did Thanos. Killing half of the universe was still a very evil act.

 

[Veltharis ap Rylix]

Very much an outside observer to this conversation, as I never really got into Dragonlance and am primarily interested in the 5e update to mine for ideas and mechanics to steal, but it sounds to me like a lot of the big "cosmic alignment/morality" problems would be solved really easily by just changing the setting's central conflict from "Good vs. Evil" to something like FFXIV's "Light vs. Darkness".

Two opposing, equally dangerous forces that must be kept in balance for the world to thrive and risk cataclysmic, potentially world-ending catastrophe when one grows too dominant over the other, and that the layperson might mistakenly equate with Good and Evil despite morality not actually being a factor.

 

[Vaalingrade]

I meant any.

And I say I have, so stop trying to decredit me by making false accusations.

And, I have to ask. Since you obviously don't like the setting and like nothing about it, why do you care what the new setting book says? You're obviously no more the target market than @Micah Sweet is. Why would anyone write a book for someone that hates the subject?

I'm sorry, I thought this thread was about speculation on what the new setting would be, not a 'DL superfans only' event.

 

[the Jester]

No, it really isn't. Because it wasn't just the Kingpriest. The Kingpriest and thousands of clerics and paladins under his command were in the process of committing genocide all over Ansalon. The Kingpriest and his clerics were about to begin using thought police (literally) to root out evil, where anyone who committed an evil thought was going to be killed.

Couldn't the gods have maybe, I dunno, denied them their spells? The answer to this in 1e and 2e, at the very least, is absolutely yes. At the worst, you could argue that these guys might have retained access to lower level spells only.

It was never about just the Kingpriest.

Additionally, it was Istar that was destroyed, not the entire planet. Granted it's still horrific, no question. But, again, simply killing the Kingpriest would have done nothing. There was a couple of decades of the Kingpriest and his people committing horrible acts of true genocide - trying very hard to exterminate all humanoids, all wizards - before the Cataclysm.

Then the gods of Good had decades to work on the problem before it escalated, with solutions like "no spells for you" on the table, and just let it go.

 

[DarkCrisis]

many evil people THINK they are good. Many Racists people THINK they are helping by separating races... THINKING you are right doesn't make you good. Your actions do

if what you do is evil it makes you evil... Genocide is ALWAYS evil

BUT... he was evil

If I shoot 100 people and my defense is "I was helping" does that make me a good person?

and again... evil actions are evil. You don't get to be 'good' and try to commit genocide.

Real religion has no part in this discussion or board

What im saying is, the way D&D alignment works, he wasnt evil. He was DOING evil, but as they say the road to hell is paved with good intentions.

Evil in D&D is selfish and self-serving. From Lawful to Neutral to Chaotic. He wasn't self-serving. He honestly believed he was helping the world at large. You can be a good person and still do bad things especially for the wrong reasons. That's even true in real life.

 

[DarkCrisis]

So did Thanos. Killing half of the universe was still a very evil act.

Thanos would literally murder people with his own hands. Literally murders his own daughter(s). Thanos knew he was doing bad things. He admits to it. But he does it for the greater good. "Im a bad person who must do bad things to save the whole." The KP did not think this way.

 

[the Jester]

Are you evil if you actually truly think you are doing good and good works?

In D&D, yes. Your actions far outweigh your intentions. See 3e's Book of Exalted Deeds, which, despite its many, many problems, has a pretty good discussion about this kind of stuff.

Evil (in D&D) tends to do things knowing it’s wrong and to self serve. KP was trying to help his fellow man he just went the absolute worst way about it.

I don't really buy the argument that "I'm well intentioned, so no matter what atrocities I commit, I'm Good aligned".

 

[GMforPowergamers]

What im saying is, the way D&D alignment works, he wasnt evil. He was DOING evil,

he was evil by D&D standards... doing evil is evil

but as they say the road to hell is paved with good intentions.

yes but those intentions don't make you good

Evil in D&D is selfish and self-serving. From Lawful to Neutral to Chaotic. He wasn't self-serving. He honestly believed he was helping the world at large. You can be a good person and still do bad things especially for the wrong reasons. That's even true in real life.

knock it off you know that Evil acts make you evil in D&D

 

[Mort]

Couldn't the gods have maybe, I dunno, denied them their spells? The answer to this in 1e and 2e, at the very least, is absolutely yes. At the worst, you could argue that these guys might have retained access to lower level spells only.


Then the gods of Good had decades to work on the problem before it escalated, with solutions like "no spells for you" on the table, and just let it go.

Not to mention. DL established that the gods work through avatars.

Couldn't they have sent an avatar (or 2) to, perhaps, tell these zealots to knock it off? Yes there is an issue of free will, but the will of the gods CAN be communicated here.

If you establish that the gods actually communicate with their worshipers, then best to have the world work that way!

And as was shown by @Neonchameleon the DL gods didn't get all cataclysmic because the good guys were doing bad things, they got all cataclysmic because the head good guy had the hubris to ask the gods to do something. Now, that's a very mythologically consistent reason for the gods to get all cataclysmic - but it's hardly "good."