D&D (2024) Rogue Playtest Discussion

[Bill Zebub]

I am guessing rogue players would have been very happy to move the next set of expertise to a higher level instead.

This. I would much rather get Evasion earlier and 2 more expertise later.

 

[Kobold Stew]

It's not in the rogue but in the general package where critical hit damage is now only weapon damage. No spell damage, no sneak attack damage, no smite damage, no adders.

Ah, in the first package. Right. Thanks.

 

[Mistwell]

Another nerf as things stand right now: Rogues cannot get sneak attack with the Booming Blade or Green Flame Blade cantrip as both don't grant the Attack action, just an attack.

This would by the way disable my entire current rogue, which I've played since level 1 to level 8 now.

 

[Neonchameleon]

Another nerf as things stand right now: Rogues cannot get sneak attack with the Booming Blade or Green Flame Blade cantrip as both don't grant the Attack action, just an attack.

This would by the way disable my entire current rogue, which I've played since level 1 to level 8 now.

No one's mentioned that yet?

And it's entirely unsurprising. WotC seem to have nerfed everything martial that's way over their benchmark, buffed everything that's under and

The difference between a L8 rogue with Booming Blade and one without in melee is 1d8 damage on your primary attack and 2d8potential damage if they move. Which is a lot. It's almost as much as your sneak attack damage. (3d8 vs 4d6)

WotC don't mind there being some difference for skill - but they don't want it to be 50% damage increases or near doubling with offturn sneak attacks. They also don't want Crossbow Expert/Sharpshooter or various other massive combos. But want to open up lots of other stuff.

 

[fluffybunbunkittens]

No one's mentioned that yet?

3rd post in this thread, I bring it up, because I only recently realized how good the blade spells are for Rogue... while it's good that there isn't this pressure for every Rogue to pick up the melee cantrips because it's free damage, it's bad because Rogue just keeps losing things and not getting anything in return.

 

[fluffybunbunkittens]

Also, if Experts are the group that borrows stuff from other classes... Rangers copy Warriors and Druids, Bards copy healers and wizards... why is Rogue the one who isn't stealing anything?

 

[Neonchameleon]

3rd post in this thread, I bring it up, because I only recently realized how good the blade spells are for Rogue... while it's good that there isn't this pressure for every Rogue to pick up the melee cantrips because it's free damage, it's bad because Rogue just keeps losing things and not getting anything.

I wouldn't say rogue got nothing. Off the top of my head:

• Dual wielding melee rogues are now impressive; if the left don't get you then the right one will and you still Cunning Action
• They now have a subclass slot at level 6 while not losing any abilities for it (just a slight shuffle)
• Rogues benefit a lot from the feat upgrades. Skulker now giving both +1 Dex and Blindsight for rogues is huge. And Charger has some really good synergy with rogues. Sharpshooter was a much iffier prospect for rogues than other classes because you risked the Sneak Attack. And of course there's the fact you get them at all and rogues get an extra at L10 (which means with current Background/Standard Array rules you only spend 2 levels at Dex 19 with a standard build).

 

[Levistus's_Leviathan]

Nope. Crawford already explained this in the videos. Crits will no longer include sneak attack damage, spell damage, smite damage, or any dice other then actual weapon dice. This is definitely a change coming with this edition. I don't even think they're going to playtest it - they've said this is a thing they are doing. But maybe I am wrong and they will playtest it and open it up to a survey.

Crawford also explained in the videos that the rules glossary of later UA supersedes the rules glossaries of earlier UA. The latest UA says to use the 2014 Crit rules, not the ones from the previous UA. You're wrong and you missed a substantial change in this UA. Rogues can still double Critical Sneak Attack damage. This is from the most recent UA's rules glossary (you can double check for yourself, just "CTRL + F" it):

Attack Roll
The Attack Roll is one of three types of d20 Tests. This Unearthed Arcana article uses the rules for attack rolls and critical hits found in the 2014 Player’s Handbook.

I hope this clears things up.

It's pack tactics. The effect is the same, is all I was saying. It's a way to get advantage most of the time.

It's actually more substantial than that. It means that so long as they have an ally within 5 feet of their target, they always get to sneak attack, because the advantage cancels out any potential disadvantages they might get. This helps a lot for ranged rogues that might have disadvantage from long range, from being within 5 feet of the enemy, being prone, restrained, or inflicted with some other debilitating condition.

This is a great buff.

I am guessing rogue players would have been very happy to move the next set of expertise to a higher level instead.

We'll have to wait until after the survey to find out! I personally think level 7 is a bit early to get "completely ignore Fireball most of the time", especially when you get an extra Subclass ability to make up for delaying the feature 2 levels, but I'd be fine with either.

That's right, sorry forgot about the proficiency bonus part. I have never gotten to 11th level with a rogue

Yep! So it's a smaller nerf than you thought! (Doesn't work on Initiative unless you're a bunnyman, doesn't work on Counterspell/Dispel Magic unless you're a level 10 Aburation Wizard multiclassed 11 levels into Rogue somehow, et cetera.) And, since tool checks are now based off of specific skills, that means that more tools are available with Reliable Talent. That's an overall buff, IMO.

It's pretty minor. It's noteworthy just because of the high number of magical longswords found in published adventures. But I agree not very noteworthy, and whip makes a lot more sense of a rogue.

So they gain the whip, which they can sneak attack with at reach, and lose the longsword, which is mostly useless to them because they can't sneak attack with it. I don't consider that a nerf.

Good one, thanks! I like that change.

Yep! I thought it was neat! Rogues basically get an extra Expertise because of this (they don't have to choose Thieves' Tools and Sleight of Hand to have proficiency with both, they get both just from choosing Thieves' Tools).

 

[Levistus's_Leviathan]

Another nerf as things stand right now: Rogues cannot get sneak attack with the Booming Blade or Green Flame Blade cantrip as both don't grant the Attack action, just an attack.

This would by the way disable my entire current rogue, which I've played since level 1 to level 8 now.

It's actually still possible to sneak attack on Green Flame Blade/Booming Blade, but you have to multiclass 6 levels into Bladesinger to do so (so then you can cast a cantrip as part of the Attack Action).

 

[Levistus's_Leviathan]

Rogue just keeps losing things and not getting anything in return.

Demonstrably untrue.

Here's what Rogues lost:

• Sneak Attack on a Reaction (which was probably not intended to work in the first place).
• Sneak Attack with Booming Blade/Green Flame Blade for any rogue of the right race/feat ability (also absolutely unintended). You can still Sneak Attack with Booming Blade/Green Flame Blade if you have 6 levels in Bladesinger, though.
• Longsword proficiency (largely useless anyway)
• Hand-Crossbow proficiency
• The option to gain Performance proficiency from their class skills (barely a nerf, you can always take it from your background skills)
• The ability to use Evasion when incapacitated (which was ridiculous anyway)
• Blindsense

They also had a couple features delayed by a level or two (the second Expertise feature was moved from level 6 to level 7, Evasion was moved from level 7 to level 9).

Here's what Rogues got in return:

• Automatic advantage when using Thieves' Tools at level 1 if you choose Sleight of Hand as one of your proficient skills from the class or a background (boosted up to advantage and Expertise if you choose Expertise in Sleight of Hand)
• An extra language at level 1 granted in addition to Thieves' Cant
• An extra feat at level 1 from your background (which other classes also get, but rogues from the 2014 PHB didn't, so it still counts as a buff to rogue characters transitioning from 5e to OneD&D)
• Whip Proficiency (which can be dual-wielded)
• An extra attack as part of the Attack Action if you dual wield (no longer taking your bonus action, which can be used for Cunning Action, which dual-wielding rogues previously couldn't do)
• An extra Subclass feature at level 6 (which is why Expertise and Evasion are delayed a bit)
• Earlier subclass features (Their level 13 feature is moved to level 10, their level 17 feature is moved to level 14)
• Expertise in more tools, because Tool Checks are now based on skills (this depends on what skills you have proficiency in)
• Reliable Talent on more tools, because Tool Checks are now based on skills (this also depends on what skills you have proficiency in)
• An extra feature at level 13, which makes it so if an ally is within 5 feet of the creature you're attacking, you will always sneak attack (and be more likely to crit sneak attack because you'll normally have advantage on the attack roll).
• Proficiency with Charisma Saving throws from Slippery Mind (meaning that you'll have 4 saving throw proficiencies automatically, which you can boost to up 5 if you have the Resilient Feat)
• Elusive at level 17 instead of level 18
• Stroke of Luck at level 18 instead of level 20
• An automatic Epic Boon at level 20 (which other classes also get, but rogues from the 2014 PHB didn't, so it still counts as a buff to rogue characters transitioning from 5e to OneD&D)

So, that's 7 nerfs, quite a few of which are fairly minor or situational and 14 buffs, quite a few of which are really big (Dual Wielding, an extra feat, buffs to tools, more and earlier subclass features, another saving throw proficiency, so on).

By my count, the Rogue class gets twice as many buffs as it gets nerfs. So "Rogues just keep losing things and not getting anything in return" is either a complete and utter lie or you somehow didn't notice any of the many buffs that they got.