D&D 5E In Search Of: The 5e Dungeon Master's Guide

[Maxperson]

My gawds you may have just caught the DMG in the act of having an option.

Yes. The guidance it provides on the three main ways to use the dice is quite good.

 

[pointofyou]

Yes. The guidance it provides on the three main ways to use the dice is quite good.

It is at least a start. Better than nothing.

 

[Maxperson]

It is at least a start. Better than nothing.

Just out of curiosity, how would you make the advice they give better? It lays out the pros and cons of the various styles.

 

[pointofyou]

Just out of curiosity, how would you make the advice they give better? It lays out the pros and cons of the various styles.

I think it could do with more detailed examination.

For instance the Cypher System Core book has approximately twice as much text about handling the dice in that game. The "running the game" section is actually longer than the one in the 5e DMG. It's not trying to be as anything-goes as 5e and it has real opinions on how things should be done in Cypher and I have found it much more helpful for running Cypher than the equivalent section in the DMG.

Which brings to mind a thought. Cypher pretty explicitly is expecting people to come to it from other TRPGs and its "running the game" section is 36 pages. The equivalent section of the DMG is 26 pages in a larger typeface. It seems to me that the game that is almost certainly going to be Gamer's First Game should have more material than a game catching the crumbs from the table.

 

[FrozenNorth]

You seem to be arguing that 4e can be played other ways (i agree) instead of whether 4e rules prescribe a particular way to play (what we are talking about). There's a difference there. Let's start talking about the same thing!

Well specifically, I was saying that the proponents of two very different playstyles both felt the DMG rules supported their interpretatation.

I also recognized that a third style (more OSR-like), wasn’t supported, to the best of my recollection. I did suggest a way that the 4e rulebook could be adapted to include it, that in my opinion wouldn’t substantislly impact readability.

 

[Maxperson]

For instance the Cypher System Core book has approximately twice as much text about handling the dice in that game. The "running the game" section is actually longer than the one in the 5e DMG. It's not trying to be as anything-goes as 5e and it has real opinions on how things should be done in Cypher and I have found it much more helpful for running Cypher than the equivalent section in the DMG.

Thank you for the response, but that really doesn't answer my question. I asked what you would add that would make the advice better. Double the text doesn't mean anything on it's own. I could quadruple that text without adding a bit of additional information. Why use 10 words when 50 will do!

What specifically does the Cypher System add to say Rolling With It or Ignoring the Dice that makes it sufficient(which I assume you think the DMG isn't).

Which brings to mind a thought. Cypher pretty explicitly is expecting people to come to it from other TRPGs and its "running the game" section is 36 pages. The equivalent section of the DMG is 26 pages in a larger typeface. It seems to me that the game that is almost certainly going to be Gamer's First Game should have more material than a game catching the crumbs from the table.

As @Snarf Zagyg said, there is the 5e starter set. Additionally, there are literally 4 other editions that all give detailed advice on running the game, a plethora of online sources, and a zillion DMs running games in shops around the country. A new DM isn't at a loss for ways to learn the game. Plus, as I said above, more words doesn't equate to better advice.

When I was in school learning to be a paralegal I had to take a case and write a brief summary of it to turn in to a hypothetical attorney. I was told to be concise, which as long time people here can attest, I usually am. I wrote a paragraph with the information in it and turned it in. The professor looked at and said, "I never thought I would have to say this to a student, but this is too concise. You need to write more." My response was, "But it has everything the attorney would need to know in it." She responded, "Yes it does, but I've worked with a lot of attorneys and trust me, they're going to want more words." So I went back and reworked it so that it had triple the words, but didn't say anything new. When I turned it back in she said, "This is good."

I need more than "The Cypher system has more words." Specifically how is it better?

 

[Maxperson]

Organizationally I think up front should be either the most important things, or the things DMs should read first sequentially. I would not put how to create settings there.

The Master of Worlds material should mostly not be the lead off section. Explaining tiers is probably the best of that section's list here for starting off material to give some context for the different tiers of play.

Building adventures and ideas and rules for running the game would probably be great stuff to start with. How the DM handles dice rolling in 5e is a good section, it should be up front, not over 200 pages in. Specifics on trap examples and variant rules and such can wait for a later chapter, but the stuff on actually running the game I think would benefit a reader from being in the front.

They put the order backwards in my opinion. Start off with the rules advice. Then move into adventure creation. And THEN world building.

 

[pointofyou]

Thank you for the response, but that really doesn't answer my question. I asked what you would add that would make the advice better. Double the text doesn't mean anything on it's own. I could quadruple that text without adding a bit of additional information. Why use 10 words when 50 will do!

What specifically does the Cypher System add to say Rolling With It or Ignoring the Dice that makes it sufficient(which I assume you think the DMG isn't).

As @Snarf Zagyg said, there is the 5e starter set. Additionally, there are literally 4 other editions that all give detailed advice on running the game, a plethora of online sources, and a zillion DMs running games in shops around the country. A new DM isn't at a loss for ways to learn the game. Plus, as I said above, more words doesn't equate to better advice.

When I was in school learning to be a paralegal I had to take a case and write a brief summary of it to turn in to a hypothetical attorney. I was told to be concise, which as long time people here can attest, I usually am. I wrote a paragraph with the information in it and turned it in. The professor looked at and said, "I never thought I would have to say this to a student, but this is too concise. You need to write more." My response was, "But it has everything the attorney would need to know in it." She responded, "Yes it does, but I've worked with a lot of attorneys and trust me, they're going to want more words." So I went back and reworked it so that it had triple the words, but didn't say anything new. When I turned it back in she said, "This is good."

I need more than "The Cypher system has more words." Specifically how is it better?

I agree it's not just about using more words and brevity has its merits. How about "The Cypher System uses its words better?" It actually tells a GM new to the game how to run the game. It has real advice for handling the game's peculiarities and for handling players. Unlike much of the 5e DMG it's useful and worth reading.

Though the game has more text about dealing with dice the dice are less important I think. Differently important. The categories in the DMG aren't applicable really is the main takeaway so comparing what it says about "Rolling With It" or "Ignoring the Dice" isn't going to be helpful.

 

[Maxperson]

I agree it's not just about using more words and brevity has its merits. How about "The Cypher System uses its words better?" It actually tells a GM new to the game how to run the game. It has real advice for handling the game's peculiarities and for handling players. Unlike much of the 5e DMG it's useful and worth reading.

Though the game has more text about dealing with dice the dice are less important I think. Differently important. The categories in the DMG aren't applicable really is the main takeaway so comparing what it says about "Rolling With It" or "Ignoring the Dice" isn't going to be helpful.

Okay. Then that leads me back to, "how would you make the advice they give better?" What would you add to the DMG Role of the Dice section to improve it?

 

[pointofyou]

Okay. Then that leads me back to, "how would you make the advice they give better?" What would you add to the DMG Role of the Dice section to improve it?

I am neither a game designer nor a technical writer. What you get is not and should not be taken to be suggestions for actual text.

I want the section on using the dice to talk about how to use the dice. I do not want a sentence of "you might do this" and a sentence of "players might think that." Saying that rolling for everything conveys the sense that anything is possible is I think flat wrong. What you roll for and what is possible are two different categories that do not particularly relate.

I want the section on using the dice to talk about the effects of rolling for everything and rolling for nothing and how those effects are different. I want someone who hasn't run before to be able to figure out how they want to run at least to start by reading the DMG. There will be people who pick up the DMG without trying to run a party through any of the Starter or Beginner Sets and I do not think the DMG should be a barrier for them.