D&D (2024) Subclasses should start at 1st level

[Vaalingrade]

Is it impossible for you to imagine an Eldritch knight who grew up in a cultural fusion of wizardry and warfare who does not yet cast spells while adventuring? You can't think of a narrative reason for that?

It's not impossible, but that doesn't mean that's what I want to do.

I want to play my character concept without wasting levels not being that character, plain and simple.

 

[Yaarel]

Is it impossible for you to imagine an Eldritch knight who grew up in a cultural fusion of wizardry and warfare who does not yet cast spells while adventuring? You can't think of a narrative reason for that?

And, I'm sorry, but "I want to have exactly the level 1 mechanics I want for my concept" is not a valid rationale for needing/granting it. Maybe I'm imagining a dwarf who grew up in a culture where everybody learns to dual wield warhammers. Does that mean I should get it at level 1?

I said I dont want it. I did not say I can not imagine it.

I dont want an Eldritch Knight that is nonmagical at any level.

 

[Yaarel]

And with one D&D it does well enough.
Especially if you are a high elf.

High elf:
Str 16, dex 12, con 13, int 16 wis 10, cha 8
Magic initiate.
3 cantrips, 1 first level spell. A fighting style, second wind.
Sounds solid.

Wait you just told someone to pay a feat tax.

No thank you.

Feats Should Be Nice, Not Required.

The Eldritch Knight "gish" concept must be a magical warrior at level 1.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

Wait you just told someone to pay a feat tax.

No thank you.

Feats Should Be Nice, Not Required.

The Eldritch Knight "gish" concept must be a magical warrior at level 1.

You just got a free feat. So if you want to start woth your concept from level 1, just use the free feat.
So you just got a freebie. The most free, classless extra. And then you complain about a tax...

So you want me to pay a subclass tax to be able to cast a spell as a fighter at level 1?
What if I want to be a battlemaster with a bit of magical ability?

 

[cbwjm]

You just got a free feat. So if you want to start woth your concept from level 1, just use the free feat.
So you just got a freebie. The most free, classless extra. And then you complain about a tax...

So you want me to pay a subclass tax to be able to cast a spell as a fighter at level 1?
What if I want to be a battlemaster with a bit of magical ability?

That's fine, then you can pick up the feat and for others who want to start off at level 1 as an eldritch knight, with a completely different feat, can do that. Maybe I want to be an eldritch knight who is a trained healer, your way means I can't do that because I have to spend the feat on picking up spells to feel like I'm an eldritch knight from the start. With a subclass at level 1, you can be a battlemaster and have a little bit of magic without needing the eldritch knight subclass.

 

[Bill Zebub]

It's not impossible, but that doesn't mean that's what I want to do.

That’s fine. As long as everybody agrees there’s no “need” on either side of this debate, only “want”.

I want to play my character concept without wasting levels not being that character, plain and simple.

Oops. Except this, again, suggests it’s not possible to “be” the subclass without mechanics.

 

[Bill Zebub]

I said I dont want it. I did not say I can not imagine it.

I dont want an Eldritch Knight that is nonmagical at any level.

And I want a pony.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

That's fine, then you can pick up the feat and for others who want to start off at level 1 as an eldritch knight, with a completely different feat, can do that. Maybe I want to be an eldritch knight who is a trained healer, your way means I can't do that because I have to spend the feat on picking up spells to feel like I'm an eldritch knight from the start. With a subclass at level 1, you can be a battlemaster and have a little bit of magic without needing the eldritch knight subclass.

It is not my way. It is the 5e way. And 1D&D makes it easier to have your concept from level 1.
I am still not convinced that level 1 subclasses are necessary. And I think the disadvantages to having a subclass at level 1 outweighs the advantages and I also mean classes like sorcerers and warlocks.

I still think giving those classes two decision points would help, and put subclass into the second.

Actually fighters already have a decision point at level 1. We could easily invent a fighting style that allows the taking of magic initiate. Then you are the eldritch knight from the get go, without wasting your level 1 feat.
Right now, fighting style look very much like level 1 feats... so the power level are about equal.

 

[Vaalingrade]

Oops. Except this, again, suggests it’s not possible to “be” the subclass without mechanics.

Yes. You cannot 'be a skilled warrior that blends bladecraft with spellcraft with absolutely no spells.

I can't get spells by just pretending to have them. That's where the NEED that you keep belittling, minimizing and insulting comes in.

 

[Clint_L]

I'm not seeing a lot of discussion of what is good for the game in general, here.

I suggest that if you have very particular needs for how you envisage your character, that is an excellent opportunity to work with your DM to home brew something, rather than aspiring to change the entire game for everyone, at a pretty fundamental level. Which is not going to happen with OneD&D, so what's even the point of arguing about it?