D&D 5E What is REALLY wrong with the Wizard? (+)

[EzekielRaiden]

Well I have never experienced that. Most of the time there is not even a wizard at the table and when there is he has never been the problem IME. The Wizard mechanics have only improved the games I have played in. YMMV

I have. Both in actual OSR games (Labyrinth Lord, specifically) and in 5e. It kind of grates on the notion of cooperative play and group fun when your Wizard friend is solving all the problems and the best solution is always to make sure your Wizard has all their spells available all the time.

 

[CreamCloud0]

As a fanboy I love that they add things to Wizards first. Think of the fiction - The Wizard is Gandalf. Gandalf took on and beat a Balrog, by himself while plummeting in a freefall. The other classes are Frodo, Bilbo, Legolas, Brohimir and Aragorn (and some others not in LOTR). They are heroic and necessary, but not as powerful.

Gandalf was more powerful than his allies. Imagine how boring LOTR would have been if Gandalf was nerfed so he could only be as powerful as Strider!

sure gandalf is powerful but here's a question: how many times does gandalf actually use serious magic in that trilogy? and for extra fun count gandalf the white as having had a long rest and restored his spell slots, Yes gandalf is powerful but he isn't throwing out fireballs every combat, charm person-ing the social encounters and stoneshaping open the door to moria, he doesn't have nearly the same casting capacity as a DnD wizard does and that's where i think the disconnect arises, expecting the power of gandalf but not the frequency.

 

[DND_Reborn]

he doesn't have nearly the same casting capacity as a DnD wizard does and that's where i think the disconnect arises.

Yeah, I don't think I've ever seen a movie where a "wizard" had the same casting capacity as a D&D Wizard PC.

 

[Incenjucar]

I'll be surprised if the D&D movie has a wizard as powerful as a D&D wizard.

 

[DND_Reborn]

I'll be surprised if the D&D movie has a wizard as powerful as a D&D wizard.

Yeah, I thought about that myself. We'll see.

 

[EzekielRaiden]

sure gandalf is powerful but here's a question: how many times does gandalf actually use serious magic in that trilogy? and for extra fun count gandalf the white as having had a long rest and restored his spell slots, Yes gandalf is powerful but he isn't throwing out fireballs every combat, charm person-ing the social encounters and stoneshaping open the door to moria, he doesn't have nearly the same casting capacity as a DnD wizard does and that's where i think the disconnect arises, expecting the power of gandalf but not the frequency.

Exactly.

The D&D Wizard has the power of Gandalf or (Malory's) Merlin, the versatility of Dumbledore or (Disney's) Merlin, and the frequency of Doctor Fate or (DC Comics) Merlin. That is, phenomenal cosmic power (up to and including literally rewriting reality), the ability to perform almost any act one might want to if you just have enough time to research the appropriate spell, and a power supply that is theoretically limited but practically inexhaustible because it's always at least somewhat under the Wizard's control.

Every other D&D spellcaster has limits on at least one (and usually multiple) of these things. The Sorcerer emphatically lacks the versatility, doesn't quite match the power, and (especially if you want to use spell points much) some of the frequency. The Cleric, Druid, and Bard all emphatically lack the versatility, a bit of the frequency, and the top-end power (unless, like the Bard, they borrow the Wizard's power.) And all other spellcasters simply cannot reach the frequency and power of the D&D Wizard.

And yet, even though those other classes all lose out on at least one part of the Wizard's potency, some of them aren't especially great for balance either. Bard is IMO the closest to being actually balanced, having a limited spell list that it must selectively choose from and substantial non-spellcasting resources that play a major role in the class doing its job. Druid is probably the closest to the Wizard, in that the Land ones can replicate almost all of what the Wizard does, and their spell list, while not topping out quite where the Wizard's does, is still extremely versatile and reaches some pretty high heights.

 

[Aldarc]

As a fanboy I love that they add things to Wizards first. Think of the fiction - The Wizard is Gandalf. Gandalf took on and beat a Balrog, by himself while plummeting in a freefall. The other classes are Frodo, Bilbo, Legolas, Brohimir and Aragorn (and some others not in LOTR). They are heroic and necessary, but not as powerful.

Gandalf was more powerful than his allies. Imagine how boring LOTR would have been if Gandalf was nerfed so he could only be as powerful as Strider!

Wizards first and on top works. It is fun for everyone. It makes sense. That is why I like it, when I am playing a Wizard, when I am not playing a Wizard and when I am DM.

In addition to what @CreamCloud0 and @EzekielRaiden said, Gandalf is an angel in the flesh with Jesus-like undertones who happens to also be wielding the elvish ring of power Narya and the elven sword Glamdring, so it's not like opposing the balrog came down to just being a D&D style spell-slinging wizard.

Yes, Gandalf was a powerful wizard, but the elven warriors Glorfindel and Ecthelion also killed a balrog, with the latter killing Gothmog, the Lord of Balrogs.

 

[Ruin Explorer]

I have never seen class mechanics come into play when it comes to stealing the spotlight and that is playing with well over 10 DMs and 50 players over the last 7 years. The three things I have seen cause some players to steal the spotlight are bad players, shy players and inexperienced players at a table with very experienced players. YMMV

I mean, buddy, if you've got that much experience and you've never seen mechanics factor into this, and you totally ignored my fairly detailed explanation of how they can even if you try to avoid it, I don't think it's that it's not happening, it's that you're unable to see it for whatever reason. IMHO of course.

 

[Ruin Explorer]

Aye. The explicit function of spells within a system that is primarily supported by a least some risk is core problem. Could probably trim out the really problem options but because they are someone obsessed with adding more spells with every book they released they'll be right back like kudzu.

Im short they have too many "I win" buttons.

The real problem I think is that these spells are all "I win" buttons when they're they're not targeting monsters/NPCs, because they don't have a roll.

My suggestion is we make casters roll.

You want to use Transmute Rock's Rock-to-Mud function to punch a hole through a wall? Ok, roll. Make a check. Roll the dice. Like everyone else has to!

The same for pretty much every spell - if everyone else has to make a check to use their abilities, you should too! Let these spells fail! Let them have consequences! Kill the fiat "I win" factor. I say this as someone who more or less exclusively plays full casters too (because all the classes I like best - well except Paladins - are designed that way), so it's not from some outsider animus towards them.

 

[Mind of tempest]

Exactly.

The D&D Wizard has the power of Gandalf or (Malory's) Merlin, the versatility of Dumbledore or (Disney's) Merlin, and the frequency of Doctor Fate or (DC Comics) Merlin. That is, phenomenal cosmic power (up to and including literally rewriting reality), the ability to perform almost any act one might want to if you just have enough time to research the appropriate spell, and a power supply that is theoretically limited but practically inexhaustible because it's always at least somewhat under the Wizard's control.

Every other D&D spellcaster has limits on at least one (and usually multiple) of these things. The Sorcerer emphatically lacks the versatility, doesn't quite match the power, and (especially if you want to use spell points much) some of the frequency. The Cleric, Druid, and Bard all emphatically lack the versatility, a bit of the frequency, and the top-end power (unless, like the Bard, they borrow the Wizard's power.) And all other spellcasters simply cannot reach the frequency and power of the D&D Wizard.

And yet, even though those other classes all lose out on at least one part of the Wizard's potency, some of them aren't especially great for balance either. Bard is IMO the closest to being actually balanced, having a limited spell list that it must selectively choose from and substantial non-spellcasting resources that play a major role in the class doing its job. Druid is probably the closest to the Wizard, in that the Land ones can replicate almost all of what the Wizard does, and their spell list, while not topping out quite where the Wizard's does, is still extremely versatile and reaches some pretty high heights.

also the speed you get the full power is part of the problem if it was only so good in all three areas at level 20 it would not matter.