D&D 5E What is REALLY wrong with the Wizard? (+)

[DND_Reborn]

Worth noting that the nomagical immunity is only to bludgeoning, piercing and slashing attacks, usually. Fall damage still works, so would burning oil or acid, so those are options they could have as well, although to burn a monster's hp with those would take a while.

Yep, which is why resistance if good, of course, but not really much of a hurdle IME. Like I mentioned upthread, Vecna was defeated with an anti-magic field, grappling, and torches, (yes, Improved Divine Smite was ruled non-magical, is it sped up the process, but wasn't essential).

 

[FlyingChihuahua]

Then there is no point in bringing up creatures like Pit Fiends or Balors if you aren't talking at least tier 4 PCs.

Fair enough, although I have seen those posts about a group of like level 7 or so PC's bringing down a Balor, so maybe that's in the cards for someone out there. (Don't remember the exact level, mind, I just remember that a Balor was way outside of their weightclass and they made it look like a chump)

Non-magical damage immunity IS (and was) the issue. Resistance is not really a big issue IME since PCs can deal so much damage really. YMMV, of course.

You'd still have to deal about twice as much damage to it to actually put it down though, and if it has a way to get back that health, like healing spells or some flavor of Regeneration, then that stuff goes even farther.

Remember, there's a reason why Bear Totem Barbarians are the most popular barbarians, and it's not because people like hair.

 

[DND_Reborn]

Fair enough, although I have seen those posts about a group of like level 7 or so PC's bringing down a Balor, so maybe that's in the cards for someone out there. (Don't remember the exact level, mind, I just remember that a Balor was way outside of their weightclass and they made it look like a chump)

All I can say then is the DM played the Balor like a little b**** then.

A common mistake IME is for DM's to run boss fights like they have to stand toe-to-toe with the party. While it is possible for a group of PCs to dish out insane amounts of damage, such uneven encounters should not end with the PCs winning IMO.

You'd still have to deal about twice as much damage to it to actually put it down though, and if it has a way to get back that health, like healing spells or some flavor of Regeneration, then that stuff goes even farther.

Sure, but with the damage potential of many parties that really isn't an issue, and in an anti-magic zone, it won't be recovering any hit points during the fight.

Remember, there's a reason why Bear Totem Barbarians are the most popular barbarians, and it's not because people like hair.

LOL true enough, but if you reverse the script, even Bear Totem Barbarians can be taken down relatively quickly.

 

[bloodtide]

Wait, what? What have I done to "mundane" characters that I wouldn't do to a wizard? I used the wind wall example as something I wouldn't do with any degree of regularity. I'm a firm believer in Grod's Law: You cannot and should not balance bad mechanics by making them annoying to use.

When you said you'd have a ranged encounter with a melee ranger, but would never do anything similar to the wizard.

If the Wizard is problematic, making it more annoying to play one isn't the answer. That either leads to one of four scenarios.

• The disruptive munchkin ignores it, argues it, or forces the rest of the group to suffer through it. His power remains the same, and he gets more annoying to play with.
• The inappropriate powergamer figures out how to circumvent the restriction. His power remains the same.
• The reasonable player either figures out how to circumvent the restriction (rendering it moot), avoids the class (turning it into a ban) or suffers through it. His power remains the same and/or his enjoyment goes down.
• The new player avoids the class or suffers through it. His enjoyment goes down.

Well, the world is not limited to four scenarios.

 

[Baron Opal II]

2 spells per level pus 4 more 1st level spells is enough to get access to most of the important effects in the game.

It doesn't grant the ability to have to the strongest version of every effect at once without help but you can get a pretty full library.

I disagree with your overall premise, but I do agree that 2 free spells per level is too much. If you allow the caster to incorporate spells from captured spellbooks and scrolls, one free spell per level allows for the player to customize their wizard and make it fairly unlikely they will have the perfect spell for the occasion. (If they happen to prepare it in the first place.)

 

[James Gasik]

When you said you'd have a ranged encounter with a melee ranger, but would never do anything similar to the wizard.



Well, the world is not limited to four scenarios.

Oh I see what you're saying! Yeah I can see how that sounds- I will occasionally use a ranged or flying encounter when I have a melee-only guy in a party. Just as I will occasionally use an enemy who has legendary resistance or something.

And yeah, I suppose that might "turn off" the melee character in a way I wouldn't turn off a spellcaster (by depriving them of magic entirely). Although.

There are ranged options a melee specialist can employ. While they may not be as good as swinging a sword (I have never ascribed to the "just switch to a bow and you're fine" rhetoric- I understand that building to use a bow with any degree of accuracy or effectiveness can be an issue for some characters- though it's certainly a lot easier in 5e, which doesn't require composite bows or precise shot, and doesn't require Dexterity to be your very best ability score in order to hit), they do exist.

I will admit that there is an analogy to "not being able to use a weapon" to "not being able to use a spellbook", though I don't think it's quite apt because the special abilities of a Fighter are never turned "off" simply because they don't have a weapon handy.

Not in the same way as a Wizard being turned into a commoner with more hit points, at least. Which is the fundamental difference, in my mind, at least. A Fighter without his sword is still a Fighter, if a hampered one. A Wizard who has had all his magic removed is...not really a Wizard.

I just don't like heavy handed solutions to balance issues. "Because antimagic" "because rust monsters" "because removal" "because blue counterspells"...ah, sorry, getting a bit removed from D&D there...aren't really answers to me.

I look at the Wizard's issues as a consequence of the game's long history of creating tons of very specific spells to deal with various situations, and not bothering to give those to "mundanes" (not a fan of that term either, but it's perhaps less loaded?) at the same time, "because that's what casters do".

Put another way, a 7th level Wizard can take raw materials (stone, maybe some wood) and create a 2 story tower inside of 10 minutes once per day. Now that's not terribly useful in all situations, but when it comes up, it's amazing. And it's not like the spell is called "create small fortification" either. It has other potential uses.

Tell a veteran soldier, a 7th level Fighter, to build fortifications out of thin air, and it's going to take hours or days. And probably ability checks, where all our Mason Wizard needs is tool proficiency. This is, to me, the core issue.

I don't mind a Wizard doing cool things with magic- the limited amount of spell slots per day is usually a limiting factor. I don't mind that spells like Fabricate exist. I mind that all of these "silver bullet" and "narrative answer" effects are limited to spells only. That only spellcasters get them because it would be "unrealistic" for characters who don't access spells, and that, by design, the only thing really stopping a spellcaster from acquiring said spells is for a DM to step in and say "that's not available".

And there are frequently situations where "spell slots per day" are not a limiting factor, which gives Wizard great narrative power. As a video I just watched pointed out, a Fabricate using Wizard could potentially jump start an industrial revolution or wow the world with the equivalent of a mass produced Gutenberg Bible or something. And that's just one single spell out of an ever-growing list.

Anyways, enough reiterating the same points. As to your response about there being more than the 4 possible results of Grod's hypothesis- what else is there?

 

[Minigiant]

I disagree with your overall premise, but I do agree that 2 free spells per level is too much. If you allow the caster to incorporate spells from captured spellbooks and scrolls, one free spell per level allows for the player to customize their wizard and make it fairly unlikely they will have the perfect spell for the occasion. (If they happen to prepare it in the first place.)

My point is just that you can't give a class 90% of effects on their spell list then let them choose so many of them as their list AND collect spells as treasure

The cleric and druid can swap all their spells because their class spells list has a ton of holes.

 

[James Gasik]

I disagree with your overall premise, but I do agree that 2 free spells per level is too much. If you allow the caster to incorporate spells from captured spellbooks and scrolls, one free spell per level allows for the player to customize their wizard and make it fairly unlikely they will have the perfect spell for the occasion. (If they happen to prepare it in the first place.)

On the other hand, too much limitation on spells ends up with the Sorcerer, where you have to carefully plan out each spell you want to grab to get the most versatile and efficient one, because your opportunities to get spells is so limited.

And then you still have to turn your sights to the next two problematic spellcasters, the Cleric and the Druid.

 

[James Gasik]

My point is just that you can't give a class 90% of effects on their spell list then let them choose so many of them as their list AND collect spells as treasure

The cleric and druid can swap all their spells because their class spells list has a ton of holes.

Since I just made a comment about this, I'm curious- how limited do you feel the Cleric and Druid are in this edition when it comes to their available spells?

 

[bloodtide]

I will admit that there is an analogy to "not being able to use a weapon" to "not being able to use a spellbook", though I don't think it's quite apt because the special abilities of a Fighter are never turned "off" simply because they don't have a weapon handy.

Well, don't go so overboard to only compare a ranged encounter to an anti magic zone. There are lots of encounters.

I think you might put too much focus on the idea that doing "anything" is a direct personal attack on the player and their wizard character.

And notice how your just fine doing all sorts of things in the game....as long as they are tailor made so the wizard can overcome or ignore them with ease. The group walks into an area of darkness. Most non magical characters will have a hard time in magic darkness...but you will toss that at them offen as it's part of the game. Of course most spellcasters have spells to lessen or negate magic darkness....but you ignore that.

Why? Now take another twist:

The area is filled with overwhelming magical bright light. Most of the non magical characters will be effected exactly like in the magical darkness. And..well, wait, the spellcaster or wizard does not have an easy spell to cast to see in bright blinding light. So...really most of the characters would be effected the same. Yet...somehow...you would resist this idea. For the poor spellcaster player character to be effected by something, it just does not feel right. A fighter character, sure you'd let them stumble around in the light or dark.....but not that poor wizard character.

Anyways, enough reiterating the same points. As to your response about there being more than the 4 possible results of Grod's hypothesis- what else is there?

Well, first you have to toss out the wrong grod hypothesis...
5.The reasonable player accepts that sometimes things will effect their character during that game and they accept it like an adult