D&D General Why are we fighting?

[Lanefan]

...we're playing a game.

A cooperative storytelling game.

No, a game. Cooperative and storytelling are qualifiers you're putting on it. Not everyone uses those same qualifiers.

Failures can happen without the entire thing being turned into a Shaggy Dog Story. I think this lack of understanding is why some people are so hung up on death as the only stake. As much as they profess to hate 'the video games', they can't comprehend failure without a Game Over.

So what other mechanical fail states are there now? All the "snakes" have been removed from the board (as have, in fairness, many of the "ladders" as well). "Game over" is the only fail state that's left.

Even more so when, as keeps arising in this thread, parties insist on all going down together in a TPK rather than putting the party's survival ahead of any one character i.e. being a bit callous and treating the falling or fallen party member as being the resource you have to burn in order to escape with your own lives.

A TPK truly is a "game over" state, to be avoided at almost any cost.

 

[Hussar]

Ok, but is every situation like that? Is that scenario even that common? "Punch the tough guy in the nose and he'll leave you alone" doesn't work every time, and not every enemy is one BBEG and a horde of intimidated followers who can be turned away with a threatening gesture or rousing speech.

There is a considerable difference between works all the time and never works.

Unfortunately many DM’s default to never works.

 

[Micah Sweet]

There is a considerable difference between works all the time and never works.

Unfortunately many DM’s default to never works.

What I've been hearing is that not always works is the same as never works. I don't believe that.

 

[Thomas Shey]

My experience is that players are willing to accept rules for "disengage without a last attack to avoid the opponents' last attacks" and "fleeing combat is faster than pursuit, at least in the short to medium turn," as a convention of the game. The hard part is retreating when comrades are slowed or immobile.

I don't doubt they will accept that. Unfortunately, that's not the rules of most games, D&D or not (and of course unless you make other accommodations it only gets you so far with opponents with ranged attacks).

It also can run into issues I suspect with some players who are, in theory, willing to accept it as a tool for themselves to use, would be--unamused--for it as a tool for opponents, who in most games you would expect to be in a situation where they want to flee than the PCs are. You really need to train players that NPCs running for it is not a great evil (and that's going to be some real work with leader-types).

 

[Micah Sweet]

I don't doubt they will accept that. Unfortunately, that's not the rules of most games, D&D or not (and of course unless you make other accommodations it only gets you so far with opponents with ranged attacks).

It also can run into issues I suspect with some players who are, in theory, willing to accept it as a tool for themselves to use, would be--unamused--for it as a tool for opponents, who in most games you would expect to be in a situation where they want to flee than the PCs are. You really need to train players that NPCs running for it is not a great evil (and that's going to be some real work with leader-types).

Having the bad guys escape and/or having the protagonists take prisoners is just not a big part of the fantasy genre, largely because law enforcement as an ally is not a big part of the fantasy genre. You really want a superhero-styled game for that, and while 5e certainly has the power for that, the genre remains pretty much fantasy.

 

[Vaalingrade]

No, a game. Cooperative and storytelling are qualifiers you're putting on it. Not everyone uses those same qualifiers.

So what other mechanical fail states are there now? All the "snakes" have been removed from the board (as have, in fairness, many of the "ladders" as well). "Game over" is the only fail state that's left.

I said failure. Mechanical is a qualifier you're putting on it. Not everyone uses those same qualifiers.

 

[Thomas Shey]

Having the bad guys escape and/or having the protagonists take prisoners is just not a big part of the fantasy genre, largely because law enforcement as an ally is not a big part of the fantasy genre. You really want a superhero-styled game for that, and while 5e certainly has the power for that, the genre remains pretty much fantasy.

I'm not sure I entirely agree, but it almost doesn't matter: it still comes back to "if you want people to treat it that something other than slaughters is acceptable, you have to teach them that the price for not killing everything isn't prohibitive." If you don't care about that, then the question is moot, but if you do, the statement is still accurate.

 

[overgeeked]

A TPK truly is a "game over" state, to be avoided at almost any cost.

Nah. You can play through a TPK just fine. Have the PCs wake up in the afterlife and have the gods strike a bargain with them to go back and complete unfinished business. Have them wake up a century or two later as undead servants to a necromancer and now they have to fight their way out. Have them wake up on the banks of the River Styx and they’re out of coins for Charon…who sends them back to the land of the living to collect the proper obols.

 

[Hussar]

What I've been hearing is that not always works is the same as never works. I don't believe that.

I wouldn’t know because all I ever see or hear about is never works. One need only look at this thread and see that.

Here’s a simple solution. Baddies that run away cause similar baddies in the same region to begin encounters frightened with a dc 10 Wis save at the end of turns removing the effect. Effect is removed by a long rest.

Poof. Instant fantastic results for the party to let things flee and spread panic.

But I’m fairly sure no dm ever does this.

 

[Micah Sweet]

I wouldn’t know because all I ever see or hear about is never works. One need only look at this thread and see that.

Here’s a simple solution. Baddies that run away cause similar baddies in the same region to begin encounters frightened with a dc 10 Wis save at the end of turns removing the effect. Effect is removed by a long rest.

Poof. Instant fantastic results for the party to let things flee and spread panic.

But I’m fairly sure no dm ever does this.

That's a cool idea under appropriate circumstances. I like it.