I think I know how the morality clause acceptable(+)

FormerLurker

Adventurer
No, it isn't; I believe you're fundamentally misunderstanding the issue if that's what you think.
Jesus wept dude.
I said This is the crux of the issue for me.

It was about the OGL a week or two ago. But now it's not.
Not really.
Almost nobody here is actually discussing or providing feedback. This was meant to be a goddamn plus thread and even here people keep picking fights.
To see a huge multinational corporation inflict needless anxiety on numerous small publishers, hobbyists, and fans, all on legally-shaky ground, for reasons that amount to little more than trying to squeeze competitors (who don't really present that much competition) further toward the edge of the market, all to prop up their own bottom line, offends people. Taking that into account, it's no wonder that people want there to be more than just a return to the status quo; there's an intrinsic expectation that trying to do something that awful, even if they fail to pull it off, should have consequences.
I'm not arguing WotC didn't mess up with the first attempt at a new OGL.
That was then, this is now.
Dwelling on hurt feelings doesn't fix things in the future, and doesn't ensure those small publishers everyone SAYS they're so concerned about have healthy careers and successful books in the future.

If people actually cared about 3PP and not their own hurt feelings, they'd be focused on making the new license as solid and airtight and beneficial to 3PP as possible.
As I said in my post that you apparently didn't read, if people actually cared about the health of the small publishers, they'd put their bruised egos and victim complexes aside and forgive D&D. Because a successful D&D means successful 3rd Party publishers.
But they're NOT. People just want to rant about morality clauses and whine about how betrayed the feel.

But I think I'm done with this discussion as this is a plus thread and I don't wish to derail it further...
 

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Alzrius

The EN World kitten
Jesus wept dude.
I said This is the crux of the issue for me.

It was about the OGL a week or two ago. But now it's not.
Not really.
And I'm asserting that the manner in which you've characterized this issue is not an accurate description of what's happening. Quite the contrary, I don't think the concerns that you've raised are at all correct in their premises.
Dwelling on hurt feelings doesn't fix things in the future, and doesn't ensure those small publishers everyone SAYS they're so concerned about have healthy careers and successful books in the future.
Again, pointing towards people's being upset at a blatant miscarriage of justice – particularly when it looks like they might actually get away with it, let alone do anything to demonstrate remorse – and calling it "hurt feelings" does not reflect the reality of what's happening. Expressing outrage is the only way most people have to contribute to a pushback (beyond a few very specific things such as cancelling a DDB sub if they have one), and while it lends itself to hyperbole (which shouldn't be taken literally in terms of the specifics articulated), it comes from a very real sense that an entity with that much power shouldn't be able to abuse it so flagrantly and get away with it. To whatever extent that can convince WotC to back off does help those smaller publishers.
If people actually cared about 3PP and not their own hurt feelings, they'd be focused on making the new license as solid and airtight and beneficial to 3PP as possible.
This overlooks that a simpler way to help publishers would be to simply return to the previous state of affairs, and that there's no compelling reason for WotC not to do exactly that beyond simple greed. There is no need to cede the central issue regarding the OGL v1.0a being revoked/de-authorized, especially since WotC's assertion that they can do that is far from solid.
As I said in my post that you apparently didn't read, if people actually cared about the health of the small publishers, they'd put their bruised egos and victim complexes aside and forgive D&D. Because a successful D&D means successful 3rd Party publishers.
Your premise, here, does not stand up to scrutiny. Even leaving aside the counterintuitive nature of forgiving someone who's wronged you for their own gain, especially when they've demonstrated remorse only after receiving pushback (which makes their motives suspect), and who continues to ignore the most obvious path toward making amends (i.e. backing off on revoking/de-authorizing the OGL v1.0a), the fact of the matter is that preservation of the old license is far and away healthier for small publishers than trying to fix the inherently-problematic new license WotC is pushing for.

People do not need to forgive D&D in order to secure the health of the smaller publishers; they need a license that actually allows them to publish without anxiety that WotC might suddenly terminate their business. That's easy for WotC to do, and they have yet to do it. Ergo, the best thing for those other publishers is not forgive WotC until that forgiveness is earned.

Any idea that D&D must be uplifted, regardless of the misdeeds of its corporate owners, in order for third-parties to thrive is misplaced.
 

Dustin_00

Explorer
That makes zero sense. I have no idea what you're trying to say here...

Are you saying people will only sign the OGL to sell on D&D's sites. But... you don't sell OGL content on WotC's sites. DnDBeyond is free homebrew that doesn't need a license beyond the ToS. (And its not like racist and offensive content isn't already removed from there.)
1. Wizards should not be the final arbitrator of what is offensive
2. People can create anything
3. Consumer platforms should not platform anything that violates the ToS they already had to create -- the system we already have
 

SoonRaccoon

Explorer
wait so you trust DriveThruRPG, KickStarter, Amazon, Ebay, Visa, MasterCard, PayPal, but not WotC...
Two answers. Yes, and these are apples and oranges.

My trust of WotC is about as low as it can get right now. I have no specific reason to place a lot of trust in listed companies, but it's certainly more than WotC.

Also, if DriveThru doesn't like your book, you lose access to that one store front. You could turn around and go to Itch, Ebay, etc. If everyone kicks you out, then there's a good chance it was warranted, and even then, you can still sell directly from your own web site.

If D&D SRD content is central to your book and WotC kills your license, your book is dead. Gone. You can't sell it, period.
 


SoonRaccoon

Explorer
But that's also how you deplatform speech you happen to not like or find inconvenient, for example, if it competes too heavily with your own books.

People have been talking about putting together a committee to determine what should and should not be available. If you leave it to store fronts, there's your de facto committee. You may not be able to deplatform something completely, but that would be the price you pay for defending against the whims of a company that may have conflicting interests when choosing what to deplatform.
 



Azzy

ᚳᚣᚾᛖᚹᚢᛚᚠ
for hate speech....
Again, we fall back to the issue that we're just supposed to trust WotC to be honorable and to not use the killswitch arbitrarily. Despite the fact that, by trying to deauthorize the OGL 1.0a (which WotC itself assured everyone that it was perpetual and irrevocable) WotC has proven to be entirely untrustworthy. That's a tall order.

the ability to kill anyone that uses hate speech's company at any given time.
Well, that escalated quickly. ;)
 

SoonRaccoon

Explorer
for hate speech....

... which only WotC gets to define...

... and only WotC gets to decide what fits that definition...

... and you are given no notice to change your content...

... and you can't contest it...

... and WotC doesn't even have to tell you what you did wrong.

At any point, you could get an email from WotC saying that your license to use the SRD is revoked for harmful conduct. And that's all there is to it.

Do you trust WotC to wield that power responsibly? I sure don't.
 

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