This is a very dumb plan. Standing down almost immediately on a terrible compromise is basically why no one is taking you seriously.
if no one was taking me seriously I would not have 5 conversations at once.
But you don't because you've lost all credibility on the matter. That's the point being made.
do you lose credibility for believing that learning new facts and changing your own mind based on the new data is bad?
no just me?
Okay, I will take the "credibility" hit to continue talking through this... that is a cost I am willing to pay.
No, you haven't. I've watched your posting. You're the last person to be saying we can just fight later, given that you were one of the first to turn around on Wizards.
so because I turned on wizards, and worked with YOU, then got to the point were I was happy with the compromise, then learned new fact took in new arguments and now have NEW reservations based on those that I am trying (with my gaming group) to compile... that is why I can't be trusted?
You lost me somewhere in there.
The value of a changing mind is entirely dependent on what you have changed to and why. It does not have an inherent value in and of itself. That you are easily swayed isn't necessarily a strength, and given your current position, it actively goes against your idea of "fighting later": we don't trust you to fight later because you took the first chance to stop fighting this time.
You do realize I am still complaining to WotC... just not about EVERYTHING you are?
right? You do realize the entire point of this was to find a GOOD way to keep teh Morality clause and all you have done (in a + thread) is talk about how it can never be?
No, I'm pretty confident. Try taking your talk elsewhere and see how welcomed it is.
in my gaming group I am the most knowledgeable of this... we talked for hours tonight
On tic tok I have been talking about this the whole time (but I do spend less time on there then here)
I even reopened my Twitter that I have not used in forever when this started to tweet about it... I have found that not everyone is on the same page even there.
On facebook not only I, but 2 people I super respect, like teh concept of teh morality clause but want it fine tuned.
Even in this thread, you are absolutely the minority voice, let alone this board. Why else do you think you are arguing with half a dozen people alone?
becuase half a dozen people are as crazy as I am to be up at 4am?
I don't even understand your attempt at reference, but in terms of trying to convince people yeah, it hasn't really mattered because your arguments are just very poor and everyone seems to have very similar lines.
okay, no one stood with me for the book of erotic fantays, or Eat the Rich (at least on here) I am use to a vocal number of posters overwhelming everyone and trying to brow beat them into the exact same group think. I 'm sorry you don't like it, but I still disagree.
I'm really not "assuming" because it's fairly self-evident that the popular position is the one I'm currently in. You could probably argue from a better spot if you realized that your position is just not carried by many people, especially given the things you are specifically trying to defend like the morality clause.
then why is there a + thread at all to try to make it work?
Again, "changing your mind" is not a virtue in and of itself, but completely dependent on what you changed your mind on and why you did. There are perfectly good reasons for why that can be a bad thing, not the least of which the reason many people have already enumerated: you are talking about fighting later, but given how quickly you have changed your mind there's no trusting that you'll stand up then.
refusing to change, bargan or compromise is not a virtue either. Not wanting to ever have facts or thoughts that oppose you be spoken is not a virtue...
I don't care that you changed your mind and your indignation means nothing to me. I will continue to say: your argument is undermined by the idea that you change your mind quickly, and your current actions reinforce that take.
and YOUR argument is undercut by not respecting that people actually grow and learn and change.
Sometimes you must be blunt.
that doesn't get you much though
I would not call what I desire to be "crumbs" and probably would have corrected that, but instead you basically said "Yeah, I'm here for the crumbs!" Hence my comment.
What I said was WHAT YOU CALL CRUMBS... not I am only here for crumes... I am here for Morality clause, no royalties (or if there must be MUCH better ones) and releasing enough to allow PF LU and BF to continue on.
No, you've just constantly tried to obfuscate because you really have problems addressing the basic issue beyond "But we can fight them later!" It's just a very bad, inane argument that doesn't hold up.
stopping progress because something bad MIGHT happen in the future is a bad argument. Assuming that the Higher Ups are more motivated by 'winning the argument through tricks' then making money is foolish at best.
You can be an honest, good person and also have a terrible position. I don't really care about how honest or good you are, the position you advocate for is just plain bad. You keep arguing for compromise, but you don't address any arguments about how bad this is as a compromise except to say that we can fight again later... when we have a worse position.
I put that whole 2 honest and good people part in here becuase you have been trying to stear this from talking about the morality clause to putting ME personally in the questions
Cool! I'm glad you've spent so many words about how incredible you are for being able to change your mind, but when it comes to actually addressing the counterargument against you all you can spare is two words.
there is no counter argument... you just keep telling me I am wrong.
I see no inherent virtue in it, yes. You don't get brownie points for changing your mind because it's all dependent on what you change your mind to and why you changed it. The details matter.
the fact that you have made it clear nothing will change your mind is a problem. It doesn't matter if I made the Ultimate Argument of Logic, had all the figures and all the facts showing you that you were wrong... You don't WANT to be shown another way.
And in this case, well, I think people find my argument more convincing than yours. If you want to compromise with Wizards, feel free to. But as its been pointed out, don't go around telling people we can "fight later" when you barely made it through a week of it before changing your mind.
I guess we will see when the survey results come out
