D&D 5E Some thoughts on skills.

ph0rk

Friendship is Magic, and Magic is Heresy.
Out of curiosity, why no Constitution Skills? You could do Concentration and Endurance (extended athletics, basically), and move Survival to Constitution, then maybe give Wisdom back Insight or something. That's just spitballing, but mostly I'm wondering why you left Con out of the skill structure.
Con checks for extended efforts are already in the rules, aren't they?
I know 5e (or any form of DnD) is not a physics engine, but you don't really get more skilled at the endurance part of endurance athletics - you do them long enough your body adapts (changing your con score). So much so that you can actually hurt yourself when you switch to a new sport, because your body has the endurance to keep going even if your form is wrong/bad.

The listed sorts of things that might take a con check are:
Holding your Breath, Marching or engaging in physical labor without rest, go without sleep, survive without food or water. I don't think a skill really applies to these - skill is what you use so you don't have to go without sleep or engage in labor all day without rest.

(Well, and quaffing and entire stein of ale in one go - I can be convinced there's some skill there. Con (Performance) perhaps.)
 

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DND_Reborn

The High Aldwin
Out of curiosity, why no Constitution Skills? You could do Concentration and Endurance (extended athletics, basically), and move Survival to Constitution, then maybe give Wisdom back Insight or something. That's just spitballing, but mostly I'm wondering why you left Con out of the skill structure.
We have a CON feature called Endurance, which grants you extra levels of exhaustion before you feel its affects.

We had Concentration, Endurance, and Vitality IIRC at one point, but Concentration quickly became almost a "must-have" skill, which we were trying hard to avoid! Endurance and Vitality seemed more like things for saving throws, so we dropped them.

Survival (in 5E) is about having the skill set to survive in the wilds, such as building shelters, tracking, etc. not so much about "surviving" the rigors of the outdoors or anything because you have resistance or good health.

Perception and Insight are purely passive scores (as in "always on in the background", not "players don't roll") equal to your WIS score. This removed Perception from the "near must-have" skills. The Observant feat adds 5 to both of these. There is no passive Investigation. If you want to find something, detect tells if people are lying, etc. it is Investigation.
 

detect tells if people are lying, etc. it is Investigation
What on earth does Insight do if that's Investigation lol?

Also, doesn't putting in more STR skills actually weaken STR-primary characters? Right now a STR-primary gets kind of a good deal because Athletics applies Proficiency to so many things. Under the proposed schema the STR-primary PC needs 3 skills just to get back to where they were.
 

ph0rk

Friendship is Magic, and Magic is Heresy.
What on earth does Insight do if that's Investigation lol?

Also, doesn't putting in more STR skills actually weaken STR-primary characters? Right now a STR-primary gets kind of a good deal because Athletics applies Proficiency to so many things. Under the proposed schema the STR-primary PC needs 3 skills just to get back to where they were.
I agree that it sometimes feels like investigation doesn’t do enough (I could say this about all int skills), but I wouldn’t take the bulk of insight and give it to investigate. I might make insight a mostly intelligence check, though. Especially for catching someone in a long-form lie. As a gut feeling BS detector, wisdom makes sense.

Frankly, I think characters should get int bonus extra skill proficiencies, even that wouldn’t change int from being a dump stat for most builds.
 

DND_Reborn

The High Aldwin
What on earth does Insight do if that's Investigation lol?

Also, doesn't putting in more STR skills actually weaken STR-primary characters? Right now a STR-primary gets kind of a good deal because Athletics applies Proficiency to so many things. Under the proposed schema the STR-primary PC needs 3 skills just to get back to where they were.
Frankly, there is nothing "lol" about it...
 


Frankly, there is nothing "lol" about it...
Okay, but what does Insight do?

Is it a vestigial skill/stat with no function? I can't get too mad at that lol given the countless professionally-designed RPGs which have something like that!

Don't get me wrong, I kind of like what you're doing, but I'm wondering at what look like weird holes in the system, and the odd weakening of STR-based PCs who are already generally the weakest on the skill front (yet I weirdly like the way you divided up the STR skills).

Also the "frankly" looks like you're confusing me and @ph0rk.
 

ph0rk

Friendship is Magic, and Magic is Heresy.
Which is why it is passive.
This assumes insight will always be assigned to wisdom, though, which I think is a mistake. Skills should float between attributes more often rather than less.

And, I will also agree with @Ruin Explorer - beware of inadvertently nerfing strength primaries, who already get the shortest end of the stick in the skills game.
 

DND_Reborn

The High Aldwin
Okay, but what does Insight do?
Fine. That's better. :)

First, just to make certain there is no misunderstanding, when I say "Passive" I mean "always on, in the background". If you're interacting with someone who lies to you, you always have a BS-detector going. Something perhaps just doesn't jive or feel right, it is your instinctive "gut feeling." Empathy and understanding how someone else is feeling or understanding what their goals might be is also passive and involves Insight.

In the same respect, Perception is your senses. They are also passive ("always on"). If I am having a conversation and someone nearby opens the door, I will probably still hear it, just as if someone steps on a squeaky floor board, etc.

By making these passive, I can have them contested by things like Influence (Deception or whatever) and Stealth (to move quietly). If the rolls fail to beat the passive scores, the PC senses something is going on. In the case of Insight, perhaps the person trying to influence you is lying, or telling the truth but has ulterior motives, or whatever. In the case of Stealth, the "sneaker" is possibly heard or seen depending on the environment and situation.

If your passive scores beat the roll, you can use Investigation to learn more. Now, you are trying to read the tells of the person. Are they simply lying? Holding back information? Have a different agenda? Why are they trying to influence you? Against Stealth, do you see the sneaker or just a form and know something is there? Which direction did the sound come from? How far away was it? In short, Investigation is used to gain more information than your passive scores reveal, and it is an active attempt to discern that information.

For example, suppose two guards are on watch with WIS 10 and 12. You make a Dexterity (Stealth) check to sneak past them in the nearby shadows. You roll a total of 11, beating one guard by not the other. You overhear one guard, "Hey, did you hear that?" "No," replies the other.

But at this point, I as the DM, can have both guards roll Intelligence (Investigation) as they remain quiet, listen intently, and scan the shadows to determine if they see anything out of the ordinary. I roll for both and get 12 and 15, both beating your stealth. Now, they either heard you or saw you (perhaps something metal glinted off of the moonlight) and you see them moving towards you. What will you do???

If they had failed on their investigation rolls, you would have remained quite enough and/or hidden enough they didn't notice you, and so would resume their guarding and you could move on successfully.

This assumes insight will always be assigned to wisdom, though, which I think is a mistake. Skills should float between attributes more often rather than less.
That's fine, and I float them all the time if it fits the narrative. However, Wisdom reflects how attuned you are to the world around you and represents perceptiveness and intuition. IMO Insight and intuition are synonymous really.

If you want to understand something or figure it out, then yes it is Intelligence IMO but also falls under the Investigation skill as you look around for clues and make deductions based on those clues. This includes looking for indications someone is lying to you or hiding something from you. Wisdom tells you something is up. Intelligence lets you figure out exactly what is up.

That is why I do it this way.

and the odd weakening of STR-based PCs who are already generally the weakest on the skill front (yet I weirdly like the way you divided up the STR skills).
We did this because Athletics is too good and covers too much. You still have Strength to base this on... so if you have a STR 18 or 20 you will be "good" at all these things already IMO. Skill proficiency represents additional training and dedication. Plenty of people are great at climbing or lifting or swimming or wrestling (grapple) or running or whatever, and they tend to be good at many other things if they are great at one or two. BUT very few people are ever great at all such Strength/Athletics activities.

For example, as a Rogue I often take Athletics (in RAW games), but what am I really taking it for: climbing and running, maybe swimming. I am not taking it to be better at breaking down doors or grappling someone typically. This means my Rogue with STR 12 has +3 on Athletics checks, but your Fighter with STR 18 is still better at +4. Assuming you bump STR at 4th or 6th levels, the Rogue will be +4, but the Fighter is +5. Often, it'll be 9th level or higher before I can even match your bonus. Now, of course I could take Expertise in Athletics, but then we are talking a whole other level of dedication. At any rate, athletics, itself, is still broad enough as a catch-all, but should not include training in brawn or grapple tasks IMO.

This also forces martial types to be more specialized or give up another skill if they really want to be Strength-oriented.
 

ph0rk

Friendship is Magic, and Magic is Heresy.
However, Wisdom reflects how attuned you are to the world around you and represents perceptiveness and intuition.

That does not explain why it would not work actively; or why a different skill is required to actively search for lies. Which is what you said earlier.

The text of the investigation skill does not well apply to catching someone in a lie - if you're relying on the text of the attribute descriptions to make this case, I'd think the text of the skills should matter, too.

I mean, do what you want at your table, but this seems to make Insight a pretty low priority skill to take.
 

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