Not a Conspiracy Theory: Moving Toward Better Criticism in RPGs

If a car mechanic or a doctor routinely makes choices with the same level of information that players typically have, I would foresee malpractice suits in the very near future and dead customers from faulty brakes.

But sure doctors and mechanics are makin “informed guesses” if that will move us past this current overly pedantic wank we seem to be stuck in.
The analogy would be making the appointment.

When someone makes an appointment to see the doctor, the doctor doesn't really know what the issue will be. They may be able to anticipate some parts of it from past meetings with that patient or something they told the receptionist. The real analysis and decision making comes during the appointment itself.

When players decide which door to open, they don't really know what's going to be there. They may be able to anticipate some parts of it from previous encounters or environmental clues they've picked up. The real adventure and decision making comes when they're inside the room.

According to you doctors and mechanics decide everything by blind guesswork because at the start of the process when the patient walks in they don't know what the problem will be.
 

log in or register to remove this ad

See I look at a term like MMI and think, yup that’s a pretty strong criticism and probably best describes dysfunctional play.

Otoh, I have no real problem understanding what is meant. So if someone uses it, instead of getting all up in their face about it, just lean into it and use it the way they are. Seems a simpler means of getting the conversation moving forward.
 

I don't think story now games are limited to just 'very minor' elements being pre-authored though. One can play story now in very detailed worlds like Glorantha, for example. When I run Other Worlds we have a group worldbuilding session but then I go away and add a lot of meat to the bones. During play a lot of additional layers can get added, sure, but it's built on a solid structure of prep as well. The essential freedom in story now is in the resolution of conflicts rather than necessarily the setup of them.
That's fair. Though I'd add, instead of saying Frogreaver is wrong about story now because it's a broader term than he's using it as, it could just as easily be changed to 'Frogreaver is right if he's using story now to mean X type of story now game'.

Feels alot like arguing definitions and categorizations to me instead of actually discussing the relevant point.
 

For what it's worth I am only sympathetic to calls of Mother May I when it refers to GMs who are making rulings based on a set of outcomes they are looking for or a set of arbitrary hoops to make you earn your successes. I am not sympathetic at all to using it for baseline ruling based on your understanding of the fiction/scenario. I still would not use that particular turn of phrase though, but I get the frustration behind it.
 

I don't think they do. I think they all fail in some meaningful way.
How to say this nicely - you are replying to posts (mine and others) with comments that don't follow from the context of the rest of the conversation between me and you or them and you.

This particular short reply is a great example. In context:
1) I made a post about perjorative comparisons having a kernel of truth in them. (A change from my previous positions).
2) You accused me of being hypocritical
3) I showed that I applied the same logic to a perjorative comparison to my playstyle (Mother May I having a kernel of truth in it)
4) Now instead of hypocrisy it's that you disagree with me over whether there's some kernel of truth in the examples I gave

I don't know how to converse when you make a point - have it answered then dismiss the answer by jumping to a totally different point. Actually, I don't think I can converse with someone doing that at all - so if you wish to continue with me please stop - and if you don't that's okay too, you just probably won't hear much from me.
 

How to say this nicely - you are replying to posts (mine and others) with comments that don't follow from the context of the rest of the conversation between me and you or them and you.

This particular short reply is a great example. In context:
1) I made a post about perjorative comparisons having a kernel of truth in them. (A change from my previous positions).
2) You accused me of being hypocritical
3) I showed that I applied the same logic to a perjorative comparison to my playstyle (Mother May I having a kernel of truth in it)
4) Now instead of hypocrisy it's that you disagree with me over whether there's some kernel of truth in the examples I gave

I don't know how to converse when you make a point - have it answered then dismiss the answer by jumping to a totally different point. Actually, I don't think I can converse with someone doing that at all - so if you wish to continue with me please stop - and if you don't that's okay too, you just probably won't hear much from me.

I don't think the pejorative labels have much use. I explained why about each one. Any truth that they have is flawed, or missing something vital that renders the term problematic. Of them all, "pictionary" seemed the most benign, but even that one seems to trivialize the role of the players; it fits the idea of play as "guesswork" which I generally don't agree with.

I explained that if someone leveled a criticism of a kind of game along the lines of these things... meaning they didn't just say "that's mother may I" but instead explained why, and the implications of such and so on... that's one thing. If someone takes the time to explain the criticism, then that's one thing. But as general labels, they all suck.

But we're not really delving into discussion of the styles here. We're just talking about the labels. If you want to expand on why you think one of these labels is accurate beyond a few words, great.... have at it. I'll happily discuss that.

Let's look at the initial exchange:

Again, this term displays a skewed view. It implies that if I make something up on Tuesday then it’s more valid make believe than if I make it up today. Both are made up… neither method is “more real”.

Through this particular lens that’s exactly what is being said. Through your lens it doesn’t matter whether something was made up on Tuesday or right before. Through others lenses it does.

So let's discuss this. What do you think is the meaningful difference between the two methods mentioned here: pre-authoring material or generating at the time of play. How does each impact play? Why do you prefer one to the other? Do you have any examples from play that you can share that display a strength of either?
 

At some point it started sounding like you were analogizing a bunch of people's play to an endless string of uninformed coin flips
What I take @Hussar to be describing is a type of RPG play I've experienced. For me it was back in the 90s, and the system was AD&D, mostly 2nd ed.

But I get the impression that there is (or has been) 3E and 5e play that is similar, and maybe also 4e play.

What I have in mind is an approach to play where the GM has a dungeon map, and associated key, which basically provides a series of scenes to frame. The players, at the end of each scene, say which corridor their PCs go down, or which door they open, or some similar sort of action declaration related to moving the PCs through the dungeon, and as a a result of this the GM frames the appropriate new scene (as indicated by the map and key).

The players are not particularly setting out to exercise control over which scenes are framed - eg they're not using a lot of divination magic, or scouting, or rumour collection, to try and learn in advance what is behind each door or down each corridor so that they can exercise control over which scene is framed by choosing where to have their PCs go in the dungeon. In this respect, therefore, the play is different from what Gygax describes in his PHB, where he emphasises the idea that players should be seeking information and doing their best to exercise control over what it is that their PCs encounter.

In the sort of non-Gygaxian play that I am describing, and that I take Hussar to be describing, the players trust the GM to have put interesting stuff into the dungeon rooms, which therefore will produce interesting scenes (encounters) when they are activated. There might be an overarching theme to some of these (eg this sequence of room is all Gnolls), maybe even extending over the whole dungeon (eg it's a series of old catacombs repurposed by Gnolls, and so we have undead in some room, Gnolls and their demonic temples in some rooms, and a few rooms that have more-or-less random odds and sods that have made their way into the dungeon, like say a Choker in one and a giant spider with its webs in another). But whatever exactly its extent and consistency, the theme is mostly for fun, maybe a bit of player-side prep (eg it's catacombs, and so there are probably undead, and so the cleric prepares Protection form Evil) and it also gives the GM a bit of guidance for how to narrate random encounters and otherwise fill in any dungeon dressing that comes up in play, but that's about it. Maybe there's also a reason why the PCs are in the dungeon - eg to retrieve a MacGuffin - but that's not really the main point of play. It's closer to a plot device or even perhaps a fig leaf to put a veneer of story logic over the fact that the real point of play is to have fun moving the characters through the dungeon from encounter to encounter.

Now @Hussar can tell me if I've got the wrong impression, but this is the sort of play I take him to be describing. And in this sort of play, it is largely arbitrary or "guesswork" which way the players go and which doors they open. Because the real point of those action declarations is to activate the appropriate scene (as per the map and key), and ideally any of them will be fun for the players.
 

The very fact I'm in that spot means I've outright failed in my goal of remaining discreet and unobserved.
I thought you were talking about the hypothetical example of play I posted. Now you seem to be talking about a different one. Are you going to tell us how you think it should be adjudicated in Apocalypse World?
 

The action declaration I imagined was checking out the warehouse security "without being caught or shot".

<snip>

It seems to me that you are assuming that the GM has a permission to make a hard move more-or-less at will. (Eg as in most approaches to AD&D play.) But as per the "play loop" that @Campbell posted upthread, the GM in Apocalypse World does not enjoy any such permission.
if my intention (goal) is to remain discreet and completely anonymous while watching the warehouse my involvement in any of those scenarios tells me I've failed.

<snip>

The very fact I'm in that spot means I've outright failed in my goal of remaining discreet and unobserved.

<snip>

I suspect the GM doesn't enjoy the permission to arbitrarily declare failure of a character goal or sub-goal simply in order to frame a scene either.
I thought you were replying to my hypothetical example of play. But you seem to be talking about a different one. Are you going to tell us how you think your action declaration would be resolved in Apocalypse World?
 

Is “informed guesswork” acceptable?
One could say the party is applying a heuristic to find the path to their goal (following fresh footprints, looking for certain clues, using information gained from prior research, etc). It sounds a bit overly clinical though.
 

Remove ads

Top