Not a Conspiracy Theory: Moving Toward Better Criticism in RPGs

[clearstream]

As more of an aside: I don't really think that TTRPGs has a good understanding or usage of the term "metagame." I personally prefer its usage or application outside of TTRPGs, particularly in video/computer games, card games (e.g., poker), and sports. The metagame, IMHO, refers to the approaches, strategies, or other aspects of the game that exist outside of the prescribed rules. This definition is also a far more neutral term and not the "naughty word" that it has become in more insular TTRPG circles where it's used almost to be analogous with a wide variety of associations (1§) such as "cheating," "BadWrongRPG," or "non-diagetic mechanics." I think that reframing "metagaming" in terms of its understanding elsewhere and then filtering out the separate issues that get lumped into the more negatively-framed sense of "metagaming" (see 1§).

I agree with your sense that it is non-negative, although I do not place metagame entirely outside rules (as some rules address the metagame, such as character advancement.)

A rough definition I use for metagame is - activities connected with the game that span across sessions.

So if I will play two games of chess, one on Monday and one on Wednesday, and on Tuesday I discuss strategy with a friend, that latter activity is in the metagame. Or, similarly, if I will play my character in six sessions of TB2, then when players strategize between sessions three and four, that strategizing is part of our metagame. As I noted above, I see character advancement in that light. Designing for the metagame is powerful!

EDIT You can see in my definition that if we were to take span to include falling outside of, then we can get at some of the reservations folk have about metagame-thinking (bringing information from outside the game into the game.)

 

[clearstream]

I've made a concrete statement: I don't think 5e D&D can emulate Apocalypse World. I gave some examples to illustrate the point: Seduce/Manipulate, Go Aggro, the use of basic moves to carve out thematically salient "domains" of fiction in which resolutions will take place.

I don't know that carving out thematically salient domains of fiction has been much explored in conversation thus far. Can you say something more about your thoughts on that?

Is your contention here that unless a game possesses some specific set of basic moves (including seduce and go-aggro?) it cannot be in the neighbourhood of PbtA? What do you list as "basic moves", such that games that have to date been counted PbtA games can be assessed against that?

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

Answer what distinguishes a Fighter from a Battlemaster, and I bet I can answer that, but I have a suggestion up above.

There are 2 versions of fighter in 5e, the Battlemaster which runs off of a pool of dice that he expends, and the Champion who just gets a big bonus to attempts to do "athletic hero stuff" and gets some generic always-on damage bonuses. CLEARLY the dividing line between the two is "I am OK with managing this meta-currency" vs "I don't want to play this here resource game with a pool of dice". That also provided the "I hate meta-currency on principle" people with a fighter to play (although they then discovered it was mechanically lame and boring to play, so there was that...).

 

[niklinna]

There are 2 versions of fighter in 5e, the Battlemaster which runs off of a pool of dice that he expends, and the Champion who just gets a big bonus to attempts to do "athletic hero stuff" and gets some generic always-on damage bonuses. CLEARLY the dividing line between the two is "I am OK with managing this meta-currency" vs "I don't want to play this here resource game with a pool of dice". That also provided the "I hate meta-currency on principle" people with a fighter to play (although they then discovered it was mechanically lame and boring to play, so there was that...).

Hey now. When your idea of exciting is rolling a crit, rolling crits twice as often is twice the fun! And three times as often...is three times the fun!!!

 

[clearstream]

Hey now. When your idea of exciting is rolling a crit, rolling crits twice as often is twice the fun! And three times as often...is three times the fun!!!

It's jumping strength bonus feet further that sells it to me.

 

[Campbell]

I think we're tripping on how close is close here. Can you run D&D 5e in a way that feels closer to Apocalypse World than baseline 5e? Absolutely. Is that going to feel anything like playing or running Apocalypse World to someone like me? Not at all. It might get you 25-35% of the way there (in my personal estimation), but generally losing what is so incredible about 5e along the way.

I can get into this later today once I have gotten some time to collect my thoughts.

 

[niklinna]

I think we're tripping on how close is close here. Can you run D&D 5e in a way that feels closer to Apocalypse World than baseline 5e? Absolutely. Is that going to feel anything like playing or running Apocalypse World to someone like me? Not at all. It might get you 25-35% of the way there (in my personal estimation), but generally losing what is so incredible about 5e along the way.

I can get into this later today once I have gotten some time to collect my thoughts.

This is what I was pointing at by mentioning Ship of Theseus syndrome; after you've swapped enough bits, are you even playing the same game any more, and if not, then why bother? I look forward to your elaboration on this!

 

[Thomas Shey]

There are 2 versions of fighter in 5e, the Battlemaster which runs off of a pool of dice that he expends, and the Champion who just gets a big bonus to attempts to do "athletic hero stuff" and gets some generic always-on damage bonuses. CLEARLY the dividing line between the two is "I am OK with managing this meta-currency" vs "I don't want to play this here resource game with a pool of dice". That also provided the "I hate meta-currency on principle" people with a fighter to play (although they then discovered it was mechanically lame and boring to play, so there was that...).

At which I think my "Need some time to get my mind back in it" explanation stands up reasonably (though I do agree this is a hybrid in-out case on the metacurrency question. Its obviously kind of artificial, but its not something that is completely disconnected from what the character is going through the way at least some general metacurrency uses usually have (I qualify because what can and can't be done with general metacurrency versions varies considerably)).

 

[Thomas Shey]

This is what I was pointing at by mentioning Ship of Theseus syndrome; after you've swapped enough bits, are you even playing the same game any more, and if not, then why bother? I look forward to your elaboration on this!

Or, as I've seen people argue before, RuneQuest is just a derivation of D&D. In a way they're not wrong, but that's a claim that obscures more than illuminates.

 

[clearstream]

This is what I was pointing at by mentioning Ship of Theseus syndrome; after you've swapped enough bits, are you even playing the same game any more, and if not, then why bother? I look forward to your elaboration on this!

I'm experiencing something like that (in part, a reflection driven by the OGL controversy.) I'm reaching a point with my methods, principles, and implied-world, that I could cut the cords to 5e. I'm undecided if I want to do so because one aspiration I've held is making my work available to others (most likely PWYW on itch.io) after the release of 6e.

Why bother? I can't articulate exactly why I embarked on this particular journey. It satisfies me to do so, is about the best answer I can give.

EDIT I suppose the matter of sustaining compatibility (if one does) casts interesting light regards the Ship of Theseus thought-experiment.