D&D 5E WotC: Why Dark Sun Hasn't Been Revived

In an interview with YouTuber 'Bob the Worldbuilder', WotC's Kyle Brink explained why the classic Dark Sun setting has not yet seen light of day in the D&D 5E era. I’ll be frank here, the Dark Sun setting is problematic in a lot of ways. And that’s the main reason we haven’t come back to it. We know it’s got a huge fan following and we have standards today that make it extraordinarily hard to...

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In an interview with YouTuber 'Bob the Worldbuilder', WotC's Kyle Brink explained why the classic Dark Sun setting has not yet seen light of day in the D&D 5E era.

I’ll be frank here, the Dark Sun setting is problematic in a lot of ways. And that’s the main reason we haven’t come back to it. We know it’s got a huge fan following and we have standards today that make it extraordinarily hard to be true to the source material and also meet our ethical and inclusion standards... We know there’s love out there for it and god we would love to make those people happy, and also we gotta be responsible.

You can listen to the clip here.
 

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Whizbang Dustyboots

Gnometown Hero
And you know if WotC said that the entirety of Athas decided to make slavery illegal, or even that muls were a species of their own and not a race bred to be slaves, that would anger a lot of fans who would see it as "woke" or some other nonsense like that. I saw people being angry that they changed "curse" to "torment" for Ravenloft's Dark Lords, despite that torment is a more active concept and a lot of the Dark Lord's curses were very passive in nature.
Oh, I think the people who took Dark Sun to a weird place would definitely be an issue.

WotC has already said that every 5E setting is just the 5E version of that setting, a statement that caused a lot of people to Freak Out. I strongly suspect that statement may have come in part due to them trying to rethink Dark Sun, to make slavery a thing that You Know, Most Of Us Were Never OK With.

That would make overturning slavery as an institution easier for the setting, but that wouldn't stop the comments, which in turn could lead to newspaper articles saying "wait, what did WotC publish for 4E?"
 

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I think WotC should do a Request for Proposal (publicly or behind the scenes) for submissions how a writer/studio would approach Dark Sun with modern sensibilities. If they find the right partner, they license it (with approval rights) but not under the WotC banner (to avoid implicating their brand). Seems like a win-win to me.

Or they could just simply open Dark Sun on DMsGuild. They've already done this for Al-Qadim after all, and Al-Qadim has slavery as a significant setting element (via the mamluks etc), although it's not nearly so central as it is in Dark Sun. This approach would have the benefit for WotC of specifically not requiring them to endorse any single DS licencee, and being able to disclaim and/or yank any interpretation of the setting they didn't like.

Folks who want Dark Sun should start looking at the non-WotC alternatives, of which there are at least a few. I seem to recall one on Kickstarter last year.

I think I remember the campaign you're talking about. It disappeared off kickstarter so abruptly that most people suspect a C&D was issued by WotC, which is quite possible considering how transparent a rip-off of Dark Sun the whole thing was. And from what I saw of it, it absolutely failed to update the setting to modern standards in any meaningful way, and it made me cringe in several places.

Maybe the hinted at forced breeding?
But really, that's such a minor setting element that it could be retconned out of existence and hardly anyone would notice, I suspect.

No, the main issue would be how to portray slavery, with a side-order of how to approach PC templars (given all the blowback Paizo got over Agents of Edgewatch during the BLM protests, and templars are MUCH worse than that was!).

I could think of a number of ideas for the former, but I'm a non-American white guy so i wouldn't want my ideas to be the be-all-and-end-all without a good solid looking over by a qualified sensitivity reader though. And i can see the really obvious sticking point. Clearly one of the most blindingly obvious slavery-related plot lines in a D&D game is 'extract person X from slavery,' whether X is a PCs loved one, or has valuable information, or whatever. But one clear option for doing that would for the PCs simply to accumulate loot and then buy X off their current owner, and to do that, they'd need to know the cost. I reckon putting a pricetag on a person, in a D&D products, would be a big step too far for WotC. And there's the whole risk of trivialising the issue. Real slavery was a monstrously comprehensive and oppressive system. D&D slavery has an unavoidable vibe of 'if you haven't levelled up a couple of times and escaped already, you're probably a loser NPC'. I found the youtube series called 'African-Americans talk D&D' or something like that pretty enlightening on the issue. I didn't necessarily agree with all of it, but it made me think, and did make me more understanding of the point of view.
 


Whizbang Dustyboots

Gnometown Hero
Absolutely. They weren't even allowed to say "anti-capitalist", which is a fairly milquetoast phrase anyway (I've said worse at work - in a major corporate law firm lol and no-one batted an eyelid! One of the senior partners has Soviet propaganda posters on his office walls), and certainly less threatening than the average performance of Les Misérables.
I have this sword and those oligarchs have a face ...
 

I have this sword and those oligarchs[/slavers/eugenicists] have a face ...
I know this works in D&D, but the impression I get is that this attitude is one of the sticking points. It's seen as kinda trivialising the real-world issue, because slavery etc simply wasn't that easy to get rid of and was backed by overwhelming force, and it runs the risk of portraying the people who didn't escape as losers who were partially responsible for their situation. I know it's not your intent, but the argument can lead to the sort of 'why didn't the Jews fight back on the way to the gas chambers?' counterfactuals which are so often made in bad faith.
 



overgeeked

B/X Known World
What a weird stance. The slavers are the bad guys. You are supposed to stab them in the face. That feels almost shockingly non-controversial.

I have a hard time imagining what else about Dark Sun might be an issue.

As a setting about the perils and consequences of climate change, it feels extremely modern.
As I said in the other thread, because a lot of people cannot seem to tell the difference between something being a warning against a thing and something promoting that thing. You have to have racism in a book to show racism is evil...which some people take as promoting racism.
 


As I said in the other thread, because a lot of people cannot seem to tell the difference between something being a warning against a thing and something promoting that thing. You have to have racism in a book to show racism is evil...which some people take as promoting racism.

That's not the argument that's being made, as a rule.

The argument is more along the lines of 'it oversimplifies the issue to the point of caricature, it often trivialises the experiences of the victims, and it turns real-world brutality into entertainment that's run by DMs who in general have very little knowledge of the historical context and reality.' I don't think anyone's seriously claiming that having slavery in Dark Sun might make people think slavery is a good thing.

Edit: and in the specific case of racism, unlike slavery it's something that a large percentage of the D&D player base might have actually experienced first hand. So yeah, it's pretty tasteless to be rubbing peoples' noses in the issue in a hobby that's supposed to be an enjoyable piece of escapism. Sure, there may be some people who can enjoy having their PC kick the snot out of fantasy racists, it's not up to WotC or anyone else to decide it's their place to administer one-size-fits-all amateur therapy in this manner.
 
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