D&D 5E WotC: Why Dark Sun Hasn't Been Revived

In an interview with YouTuber 'Bob the Worldbuilder', WotC's Kyle Brink explained why the classic Dark Sun setting has not yet seen light of day in the D&D 5E era.

I’ll be frank here, the Dark Sun setting is problematic in a lot of ways. And that’s the main reason we haven’t come back to it. We know it’s got a huge fan following and we have standards today that make it extraordinarily hard to be true to the source material and also meet our ethical and inclusion standards... We know there’s love out there for it and god we would love to make those people happy, and also we gotta be responsible.

You can listen to the clip here.

 

[overgeeked]

It's been a looong time since I read it and I may be misremembering, but didn't Athas also have nomadic, thieving, swindling elves? Because given the awful stereotype of "thieving, swindling gypsies", that's potentially also a thing of problem for WotC, I imagine.

Yes. That's a part of the setting. But they could easily update it to be a negative stereotype that people hold against elves that simply isn't true, or is only true of a few individuals rather than the race as a whole. But, again, that requires presenting the stereotype in the first place in order to shatter it...which for a lot of people is seen as promoting the bad thing rather than attacking the bad thing, i.e. racism.

 

[SpaceOtter]

Yes. That's a part of the setting. But they could easily update it to be a negative stereotype that people hold against elves that simply isn't true, or is only true of a few individuals rather than the race as a whole. But, again, that requires presenting the stereotype in the first place in order to shatter it...which for a lot of people is seen as promoting the bad thing rather than attacking the bad thing, i.e. racism.

The problem is, I think WotC ends up in a losing situation regardless:
1) Many existing diehard fans will complain about any changes (and you just know there'll be a cavalcade of "WOKE!" rants).
2) Folks who don't read it thoroughly will complain that, exactly like you said, it promotes the bad thing.
3) Other folks will listen to both groups or either and avoid it as a result.

The potential for it to be an embarrassing sideshow is probably just too high.

 

[overgeeked]

That's not the argument that's being made, as a rule.

Specifically in regards to Dark Sun, no. It's a general thing that's happening everywhere. Works that depict a thing as bad are mistakenly seen as promoting the bad thing. That's absolutely a thing that's happening.

The argument is more along the lines of 'it oversimplifies the issue to the point of caricature, it often trivialises the experiences of the victims, and it turns real-world brutality into entertainment that's run by DMs who in general have very little knowledge of the historical context and reality.'

Which is roughly true of any RPG that touches on sensitive topics. You don't need to be a scholar of 1920s racism to run a Call of Cthulhu game, for example. And limiting referees to experts in related topics the game might touch on seems a bit...limiting. Not every game needs to be perfectly ran. We need to be able to make mistakes and learn without being thrown under a bus.

I don't think anyone's seriously claiming that having slavery in Dark Sun might make people think slavery is a good thing.

People have, people do, and people will continue to make identical arguments about every other form of entertainment, so I don't see why they wouldn't about an RPG.

 

[humble minion]

Specifically in regards to Dark Sun, no. It's a general thing that's happening everywhere. Works that depict a thing as bad are mistakenly seen as promoting the bad thing. That's absolutely a thing that's happening.

This is specifically a thread about Dark Sun though.

 

[overgeeked]

The problem is, I think WotC ends up in a losing situation regardless:

1) Many existing diehard fans will complain about any changes (and you just know there'll be a cavalcade of "WOKE!" rants).

You can't stop stupid people from doing or saying stupid things. They're wrong about it every time they scream, rant, rave, whine, and cry about "woke" whatever, so why should we care that they pull the same routine over an RPG?

2) Folks who don't read it thoroughly will complain that, exactly like you said, it promotes the bad thing.

Yes, and that's exactly how people treat everything else. But those other entertainments continue on regardless, so why should RPGs be any different? The closest thing to a counter argument is that RPGs are a much smaller niche so the few loud voices are comparatively amplified. But, so what?

3) Other folks will listen to both groups or either and avoid it as a result.

Yep. That's how it works. People that can't be bothered to inform themselves about a topic will take the word of people who are partially informed about a topic and form an opinion about the topic. Same as it ever was. So why is that uniquely problematic here?

The potential for it to be an embarrassing sideshow is probably just too high.

Oh, I'm not arguing for WotC do revive Dark Sun. The further they stay away from it the better. They will destroy the uniqueness of the setting, drain it of all life and vitality, all in the hopes of appeasing the very people you mention. So whatever they finally did release would piss (almost) everyone off, see Spelljammer as a recent example...and the impending Planescape release.

 

[overgeeked]

This is specifically a thread about Dark Sun though.

Yes...and if Dark Sun were to be published today...this exact argument would be made. And in knowing that argument would inevitably be made, people suggest various changes to the setting specifically to avoid the possibility of that argument being made.

 

[Maxperson]

I don't think that's what he meant by that. He's saying he doesn't want to turn people off by minimizing the seriousness of slavery.

Do you think someone should tell him that slavery is mentioned like a dozen times or more in the core books and various settings?

 

[Maxperson]

Possibly the history of genocide by the still-alive perpetrators. (Yeah, they are all bad guys, except for the one in Kurn who is being better now)

Maybe the hinted at forced breeding?

You can remove a hint and yes, bad guys are bad. That's the point. It's what makes them bad guys.

 

[Whizbang Dustyboots]

It;s less climate change and more "The planet to beyond saving and you can make it worse to power up spells or buying slave or desperate meatshields."

Again, this is the 5E version of the setting, not the 4E or 2E one. There was a whole week on ENWorld when people melted down over WotC's declaration.

A 5E Athas could be one where salvation is possible, but the details are never specified, beyond a super-vague prophecy.

 

[SpaceOtter]

You can't stop stupid people from doing or saying stupid things. They're wrong about it every time they scream, rant, rave, whine, and cry about "woke" whatever, so why should we care that they pull the same routine over an RPG?

Yes, and that's exactly how people treat everything else. But those other entertainments continue on regardless, so why should RPGs be any different? The closest thing to a counter argument is that RPGs are a much smaller niche so the few loud voices are comparatively amplified. But, so what?

Yep. That's how it works. People that can't be bothered to inform themselves about a topic will take the word of people who are partially informed about a topic and form an opinion about the topic. Same as it ever was. So why is that uniquely problematic here?

Oh, I'm not arguing for WotC do revive Dark Sun. The further they stay away from it the better. They will destroy the uniqueness of the setting, drain it of all life and vitality, all in the hopes of appeasing the very people you mention. So whatever they finally did release would piss (almost) everyone off, see Spelljammer as a recent example...and the impending Planescape release.

Of course you can't stop stupid people from saying or doing stupid things, nor is anyone saying this is somehow uniquely a problem. But this isn't about whether you or I care, it's really about whether WotC would care, because the thread is quite literally about why they aren't touching the setting. And given the setting's potential to create a dumpster fire of bad press, I can honestly see why they would avoid it. You even noted that the loud voices are more amplified in a smaller niche hobby. Besides, I'm seeing you're happy they're not touching it, in which case you can personally break out the champagne.