D&D (2024) New Wild Shape

[Tales and Chronicles]

I just dont understand why they dont just go with a 3-in-1 statblock like the Summon Beast spells that would scale based on your BP. Moon Druid would gain the equivalent of Summon Elemental statblock.

You could even have some ''Invocations'' choices to add to your beast (grapple on a hit, poison, keen senses) at higher level.

I personally done it in a game and it works great (and used the old UA Primeval Guardian ranger's features to replace the bad ones of the Land druid!)

 

[mellored]

Add 3 THP/level and resistance to thunder, plus your attacks each deal an extra 1d6 thunder damage and your target must make a str saving throw or be knocked back 10'.

IMO, that would be another "invocation" option. (Using spell slots or whatever).

I.e. frog swallow, panther pounce, vipers venom, and air elementals kockback, fire elemental form, ect...

But I do agree that flat +1d6 damage is less than inspiring.

 

[Ruin Explorer]

And in one way the change is about as conservative as it can get if you accept the premise that the MM need to go. The argument might rather be then that it is too conservative, that there need to be something fully new concept added to the class beyond abduration/healing casting while in beast shape to balance out the effects of that change.

This isn't remotely arguable. It's just a nonsensical claim.

Keeping it conservative would mean retain the basic capabilities that a Druid had previously, just changing to a generic stat block, not pushing them to high levels and doing bizarre things like time-limiting tiny forms. That's the polar opposite of conservative. It's radical and odd. Losing the HP was also huge, and not replacing it with anything is again radical, not conservative.

So I'm sorry but that's just ridiculous. As is your suggestion re: rats. The correct, sane, conservative solution would have been to give a sort of "critter" form at low levels that did basically no damage, but had increased stealth or the like.

I love his ideas, but I don't think they would work as official rules. The problem is that there are no straight forward way to rule it so that it has to make sense. Hence the flying stealthy poison biting pig is going to be a thing at too many tables that isnt really into that sort of nonsense.

So limit the combinations, the approach that WotC are taking is pathetic and destroys the entire concept of Wild Shape.

 

[mellored]

Hence the flying stealthy poison biting pig is going to be a thing at too many tables that isnt really into that sort of nonsense.

What if I already have a mini for that?

Seriously, your just described a manticore. Mixing animals together is as old as story telling.

Though maybe only the moon druid gets to go full chimera. Regular ones have to stick to a single animal.

 

[Bill Zebub]

Honestly, i think they may have just made a mistake.

Using a generic stat block was the basic idea. And I haven't heard anyone say they like digging though the monster manual.

I think the generic stat bloc/template thing is going to happen. I would be shocked if it didn't. Some people will still howl into the wind* about it, but those with better strategic sense will start thinking about how to make templates work so that good feedback can be given.

*Which I think is a particularly apt metaphor in this case.

 

[Chaosmancer]

Okay having solved that problem...can we discuss how underwhelming the new elemental forms are?

I'm just gonna put this out there: I think they should keep the elemental transformation as is. Unlike regular wild shape, it doesn't add a ton of complexity: there are four options, and they are all next to each other in the MM. It's pretty powerful, but not if you move it back to level 9. And it's fun.

Or, it needs a bit of a nerf, make it similar to wild shape, so that you add temp hit points, but also give this one some extra damage of the appropriate element, resistance, and a related minor effect for flavour:

Example: elemental air - your beast takes on aspects of a whirlwind. Add 3 THP/level and resistance to thunder, plus your attacks each deal an extra 1d6 thunder damage and your target must make a str saving throw or be knocked back 10'.

Something like that.

I'm not against the level 10 ability, it is decently powerful to add a 1d6 to each attack you make, of an element of your choice, But it is boring.

The Elemental Wildshape for level 6 is... really a pick your own resistance, which again, isn't terrible, but it is also packed full of flavor for people. I think if they added poison to the list, it would be pretty decent, and if you could choose them seperately from the level 10 ability to avoid the issue that fire attacks are usually not great against enemies which require fire resistance.

I am sad they lose out on the burrowing, and the ability to move through spaces, because those were fun, but I'm mostly looking at it and wondering if the abilities are just a little boring.

 

[billd91]

I think the generic stat bloc/template thing is going to happen. I would be shocked if it didn't. Some people will still howl into the wind* about it, but those with better strategic sense will start thinking about how to make templates work so that good feedback can be given.

*Which I think is a particularly apt metaphor in this case.

Well, it didn’t make it out of the D&D Next play test, so we’ll see if the community has changed enough to accept it.
I might be amenable to it, but not as currently written.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

Did it? Was anyone anywhere talking about how Land Druids were the most OP class? Or Spore Druids were top tier? Even when Treantmonk did his big "rank all the classes against each other and all Casters get super high ratings" most druids were ranked B or C, with the only two exceptions being Moon and Shepherd. Shepherd, who focused on summonig spells which are generally problematic with the action economy and Moon which every agrees was VERY strong early game, meh mid game, and very strong to unkillable late game.

And most of the problematic parts for me on the Druid Wildshaping? They apply to all Druids. They nerfed ALL druids, not just Moon. And I'm not sure all druids needed a nerf like this.

For non-moon druids it was more or less a ribbon ability anyway... so...

edit: I am speaking as DM here and a bystanding player: being able to transform and have so many extra hp felt imbalanced. That everyone compares them to the barbarian is in my opinion rather proving my point, not theirs. It is too much.

5THP per level for a moon druid seems quite appropriate. I'd even say WIS bonus + 4THP for everyone, WIS bonus +6 THP for moon druids. Of course youbare knocked out of wildshape when your THP are lost.

A little boost at level 1 and 2, because 5 hp feels a bit too low at level 1 for me.

I'd also add WIS bonus to concentration saves. I really hate melee characters woth concentration spells not being able to hold them 40% of the time.

 

[Enrahim2]

Yes.

5/THP per level, with the 10+Wis AC, is good enough to be an off-tank. Better than a cleric, but worse than a fighter/barbarian/paladin.

This is as far as I can see not in any way looking at the effect of the added abdurartion/healing capability? That was what I wondered if anyone had looked into trying to quantify. So I now have time to make a simple attempt. assuming 8 hp per spell level from cure wounds we look at a 32 buffer per long rest without upcasting. The upcasting is very lackluster if CW is not reworked. But still at 4th level if assuming the caster is only burning slots on CW there is an extra 36 hp to fetch there. Assuming the options in PHB is representative of what the Druid HP buffer was intended to be, the CR1 monsters hover around 30hp with dire wolf being the tankiest with 37 (and 14 AC). It hence seem that even if burning trough all spell slots, and sacrificing 7 standard actions the Druid still do not get up to 5ed standard when it come to durability while in beast shape. (Taking into account 2 beast shapes per short rest)

Losing the HP was also huge, and not replacing it with anything is again radical, not conservative.

As I tried to state in the post you reply to. I do believe they tried to replace it. However as the calculation above indicate, that replacement seem far from adequate if the intention was to provide the same overall balancing as 5ed (not to mention it is only made for Moon druids). I think we hence actually might agree on basic principle, but are speaking a bit past each other as we use wildly different rethorics. I think we are in a better position to effect change if we try to identify what they might have tried to do, and suggest changes in a similar vein (hence my suggested double self healing, bonus action, extended to all druids suggestion), rather than proposing something completely different to try fix it.

However I think at this point it might be better for them to accept losing out on some of the simplifications I think they were aiming at and introduce a scaling hp formula in the stat block; like 5 x proficiency bonus, tripled for moon druid (removing the abduration casting).

 

[Azzy]

Sorry, but it needed nerfing it to the ground...

Is this spoken from actual experience or is this just white room theory-crafting? Because my personal experience differs.