D&D General Dice Fudging and Twist Endings

[Umbran]

Fudging is, to me, not so much about trust (though there's some of that, depending) but just that it's a tool that serves no purpose.

It isn't that they serve no purpose. It is that there are other tools that also can yield similar results.

But, I own like, a dozen screwdrivers. They all serve generally the same purpose, but some are more convenient than others for various applications. And I have a power drill that has several different driver bits. And I also have a few different hammers. Sometimes, I can substitute a hammer and a nail for a screw and screwdriver. I have wrenches, and maybe I can substitute a nut and bolt for a screw or a nail...

And I have them all around, despite the redundancy, because I want the right tool for the job around when I need it, without having to take a trip to the hardware store because the tools I have don't quite do the trick, or situation didn't allow me to do the preparation needed to use one of the other tools.

 

[Zaukrie]

Not really a thing. The referee sets up the monsters based on the situation in the fiction. It's on the players to engage with that or run away. If they insist on fighting things above their pay grade, that's 100% on them. That's what Session 0s are for. "There is no balance in this game. Not all monsters or encounters are designed to be fights. Not all fights can be won. Adjust your expectations accordingly. If that doesn't sound fun to you, there's the door."

To quote you...

It's on each person to make sure they are entertained. If it's anyone else's responsibility (it isn't), then it's everyone's responsibility. It's certainly not one person's responsibility to ensure the whole table is entertained. Do players really sit down and expect that DM to entertain them? How exhausting. Maybe that's why there's a DM shortage and there are paid DMs now.

I can't imagine ever playing with you. I doubt we could disagree less on this.

 

[Umbran]

It's on each person to make sure they are entertained.

I see RPGs as a collaborative, cooperative activity. Fun is a responsibility shared around the table.

I have some responsibility for myself, but I also have responsibilities to the other people at the table. And I expect others at the table to hold some responsibility to work with me on having good times together.

 

[soviet]

If it's the GM's job to put on a show and entertain me, using deception if necessary, then I am an audience member rather than a participant. I want to be a participant.

 

[EzekielRaiden]

I thought it was just a flip comment I was making.

But to examine it further, Labyrinth is a story where pretty much all the characters lie, where deception plays a very strong, perhaps even central role. Hoggle and Jareth lie to Sarah on multiple occasions, Sarah lies to herself, Ludo's fearsome appearance belies a loyal and friendly nature. And arguably, what defeats the Goblin King is the assertion of truth of "You have no power over me."

Sure. Those are characters within the tale lying to one another. That happens all the time. It's not literally every single interaction between every character ever, but it's very common. As you say, the lies can even be a character lying to herself.

But to say that storytelling itself is exclusively made of lies is just ridiculous. Storytelling is fictional, but something can be fictional without being a lie. A lie is something told with intent to deceive. Something that has the capability of bearing truth in a relevant sense, and which is intentionally portrayed as bearing such a truth, but which is in fact false.

A fictional story that is presented as though it were absolutely 100% literally true would be a lie (likely a massive one, and easily seen through unless the teller is very cautious.) However, in the vast majority of circumstances, human beings understand the difference between a fiction story, something unreal but described in realistic detail, and something that is masquerading as truth despite being presented as though it were literally true. Children invent stories like this all the time, with the understanding that they are not lying, they are imagining, painting a picture with words. Such storytelling is one of the most quintessentially human acts.

More importantly for TTRPGs, a story which is collaboratively told by the participants involved, everyone participating knows that the story cannot be literally true, that there is no physical reality to which the story corresponds. Instead, they understand that they are participating in a shared narrative space, where each participant gets some degree of control over what future events the story will contain; in D&D, most of that control is vested in the DM, but the other players have a small measure too. Because this shared imaginary space is...well, shared, there have to be some ground rules for how different participants affect it, otherwise it's not actually shared anymore. One of those rules, generally speaking, is that anything established within the space already remains true unless acted upon by some other force: ontological inertia, to use the TVTropes term. Things remain as they are unless something acts to make them stop being things (or to become some other kind of thing.)

 

[overgeeked]

I can't imagine ever playing with you. I doubt we could disagree less on this.

Likewise. But that's okay. Not every game is for every player. Not every referee is a match for every player. And not every table is suited to every player. Everyone has preferences and they're all different.

 

[iserith]

It isn't that they serve no purpose. It is that there are other tools that also can yield similar results.

But, I own like, a dozen screwdrivers. They all serve generally the same purpose, but some are more convenient than others for various applications. And I have a power drill that has several different driver bits. And I also have a few different hammers. Sometimes, I can substitute a hammer and a nail for a screw and screwdriver. I have wrenches, and maybe I can substitute a nut and bolt for a screw or a nail...

And I have them all around, despite the redundancy, because I want the right tool for the job around when I need it, without having to take a trip to the hardware store because the tools I have don't quite do the trick, or situation didn't allow me to do the preparation needed to use one of the other tools.

My point is I don't need the screwdriver in the first place because there's nothing that needs fixing.

I don't create stakes I'm not willing to live with if the dice go either way.

 

[Clint_L]

Then I don't really know if I understand what you were meaning by it. Characters can lie in stories. That doesn't make all storytelling lies.

Well I was being a bit facetious, and I didn't come up with that quote. The underlying point is that all stories are intentional untruths, so you can make a case that they are technically lies, if of a benign and cooperative nature. On the other hand, maybe those lies reveal deeper truths - "there's a world of difference between truth and facts" (Maya Angelou).

 

[Umbran]

If it's the GM's job to put on a show and entertain me, using deception if necessary, then I am an audience member rather than a participant. I want to be a participant.

Or, you can embrace the power of "and" by realizing that the GM can put on a show that you can participate in. Not all shows are passive.

 

[soviet]

Or, you can embrace the power of "and" by realizing that the GM can put on a show that you can participate in. Not all shows are passive.

But the outcome of my participation is subject to a secret veto. 'Sorry, that's a failure'. 'Yay, that was a success after all'.