• The VOIDRUNNER'S CODEX is coming! Explore new worlds, fight oppressive empires, fend off fearsome aliens, and wield deadly psionics with this comprehensive boxed set expansion for 5E and A5E!

What's Your "Sweet Spot" for a Skill system?

JohnSnow

Hero
That’s right. It’s not a great name, but I wanted something that implied locks and traps, and I dislike “thievery”.
If you want to keep picking pockets and dealing with locks and traps separate, “thievery” wouldn’t be a great choice. I like combining them, but not everyone does.

In the 19th-century, it was lumped into the group of skills called “roguery.”

It’s intended for social stuff, but I’d include sleight of hand and palming objects. That would work by manipulating the target’s attention while nimbly lifting the item (so Manipulation + Dexterity on the Skill Check).
Two other terms you might consider are “Sleight of Hand” or “Legerdemain” (which is an English word derived from the French translation of the latter).

The distinction with Deception feels too subtle though. The social skills list needs another pass.
Personally, I like separating social into Charm/Persuasion/Seduction, Bluff/Con/Deception, and Intimidation. You basically choose between winning someone over, lying to them, and threatening them.
 

log in or register to remove this ad

kenada

Legend
Supporter
If you want to keep picking pockets and dealing with locks and traps separate, “thievery” wouldn’t be a great choice. I like combining them, but not everyone does.

In the 19th-century, it was lumped into the group of skills called “roguery.”
Hmm. Well, I have a few more ideas at least (from you and @Jd Smith1). Thanks! 😂

Two other terms you might consider are “Sleight of Hand” or “Legerdemain” (which is an English word derived from the French translation of the latter).
I’ve considered legerdemain, but it makes me think of magic tricks rather than lock-picking and trap-disarming.

Personally, I like separating social into Charm/Persuasion/Seduction, Bluff/Con/Deception, and Intimidation. You basically choose between winning someone over, lying to them, and threatening them.
One of the reasons why I think I need to do another pass is I want to make sure they work really well with method + approach. That goes for the whole list, really. Intimidation in that context seems like it should follow from the particular approach plus the method.

For example, bringing your gang to intimidate a shop-owner into paying for protection is a sort of negotiation might be Leadership1 + Willpower2 while just demonstrating the kind of violence the shop keeper should expect might be Negotiation + Strength. What’s appropriate is going to flow from the situation.



[1]: Leadership can sub in for other skills when you are directing or working with followers to do something.
[2]: Willpower is the mental equivalent of Endurance. In this example, the PC is maintaining an icy disposition while the followers do the “talking”.
 

My preference is for skill-based - rather than class/level - game systems. So I'm quite happy with fairly complex skill systems. Call of Cthulhu is simple, but functional; GURPS is good, but perhaps a little too dependent on attribute levels, and Hero is not quite dependent enough on attributes.
 

loverdrive

Prophet of the profane (She/Her)
As always, I'm gonna be unhelpful.

Skill list should be as short as possible, but not any shorter. All skills must be
  • a) useful
  • b) irreplaceable
for whatever the game focuses on.

Should "Shoot" and "Fight" be two different skills? Only if both are viable and there's an added depth by separating them. If you (as a group playing the system) are unlikely to resort to violence at all, who cares whether you can't shoot or can't brawl? If you'll probably have only one "muscle" character who does all the violence, who cares whether they use a machinegun or their bare fists?

Overall, I'm very wary of any kind of hyper-specialization in RPGs, be it in a form of very narrow skills, special abilities or whatever, since as a general rule, there's only one character per player and there are only 3-4-5 players, which naturally means that generalists will always be more viable than specialists, not only in terms of effectiveness, but more importantly, ability to actually play the damn game.

Videogames here have two distinct advantages that TTRPGs don't possess:
  • a) You can replay a videogame and see for yourself how much (or, sadly, little) changes if you go for a different build, making the differences much more apparent
  • b) The simple fact that you can have much more complex and nuanced gameplay, where a little tweak goes a long way to influence the game feel. You can't do that when at the end of the day, you are just rolling dice.
 


GMMichael

Guide of Modos
It seems to me that designers of a game should figure out about a dozen() distinct things that are *actually rolled in the game and make 'skills' for them. If it's not rolled often, fold it into another 'skill' and make that beefier.
At first, my thought is, "yes, this is exactly what the skills should be! Why waste paper?"

But... unless the game forces a type of game play, doesn't "actually rolled" depend on the players? Or couldn't the GM be in charge of selecting what is actually rolled? (This latter even more so, since the GM is often in charge of initiating rolls!)

Here it is:

  • Academics
  • Athletics*
  • Bluff
  • Common Knowledge*
  • Driving
  • Fighting
  • Healing/Medicine
  • Intimidation
  • Language
  • Notice*
  • Performance
  • Persuasion*
  • Repair
  • Riding
  • Occult
  • Science
  • Seamanship
  • Shooting
  • Spellcasting
  • Stealth*
  • Survival
  • Thievery
Applying @loverdrive 's criteria here (not a bad way to go), I have to ask:

Is Academics useful? Language? Seamanship? Does one really have to use Common Knowledge?

Are some of these replaceable? Can I do the same things with one or more of these skills? Can I conceal a stolen purse with stealth or thievery or bluff? Can I rally troops with language, performance, or persuasion? If I have no fighting skill, can I use athletics instead?

Stealing something else from SWADE, all characters start with “trained” in the 5 Core Skills, marked with an asterisk(*). Because you can’t survive childhood without them.
This sort of tells me that the 5 Core Skills don't belong in the same skill system, because it's assumed everyone can do them. That breaks up the definition of "skills"; do they require training, set characters apart, represent something that you can't really do without some level of development with them?
 

FitzTheRuke

Legend
At first, my thought is, "yes, this is exactly what the skills should be! Why waste paper?"

But... unless the game forces a type of game play, doesn't "actually rolled" depend on the players? Or couldn't the GM be in charge of selecting what is actually rolled? (This latter even more so, since the GM is often in charge of initiating rolls!)

Well, a well chosen skill set should take playstyle into account, but would have to be limited by what the individual game is trying to accomplish. Sure, some skills could wind up being rolled more often in some campaigns (wherever 'sailing' fits in would be a good example), or asked for by some GMs more than others. Nothing can be perfect, but it can get closer than we often get, I think.
 

dragoner

KosmicRPG.com
Okay, this is another "let's get people talking" post. And I know everyone will have very different answers to this, but I'd be interested to know if there's any trends...

Skill systems feel like one of the most divisive subjects in RPGs. The earliest editions of D&D had a solidly defined "skill system" to cover combat and a bolted on subsystem for the various thief skills...and not much else. After introducing the concept of non-weapon proficiencies (1e Survival Guides and 2e), 3e went nuts with a simulationist skill system using the core mechanic. Other than cleaning it up and greatly simplifying the list, that's largely held on in D&D, although the granularity isn't great, and most of the "improvement" is dumped on leveling. Counting tools and languages, a starting 5e character gets to train in 6 (most), 7 (Rangers), 8 (Bards, w/"musical instruments" as a single tool), or 9 (Rogues) skills, in addition to their combat and spell-casting abilities. All the non-humans usually get an extra language. It's worth noting that D&D only has 18 official "Skills," although languages are separate and some of that load is dumped on Tools, which seem to be considered "less useful."

Outside of D&D, many other games have highly developed skill systems, some of which (classless systems) even handle combat and spell-casting. But those run the gamut from Palladium to GURPS to VtM to Savage Worlds and everything in between.

And then there are a ton of games which basically don't have skill systems, or that replace them with something highly abstract, like Castles & Crusades Primes, or the minimalist systems that lean heavily on attributes, like PbtA, or many, many OSR games.

Personally, I'm kinda in the middle on skill systems. I like them because I like not having to rely on something as artificial as "Class" on which to build characters, and I'm highly skeptical of the "just wing it" based on what's plausible from a character's background, but I really don't want to go back to the days of having separate skills for pistols, rifles, and bows ("Shooting" feels right) or highly curated lists of proficient weapons. By the same token, I'm also perfectly fine with combining "Hide" and "Move Silently into a single skill called "Stealth" or "Sneak" and "Listen" and "Spot" and "Seach" into one skill called "Notice." I'm not even sure we need to separate athletics and acrobatics. And the various social and knowledge skills create a whole extra level of problem, but in the interest of keeping this post manageable, I won't go into detail about that.

I can also appreciate that the more load we put on skills, the less we need attributes. Is that a bad thing? I'm not sure. As a sword-fighter, I know that strength doesn't impact your ability to inflict damage with sharp weapons nearly as much as many people think it should. That's honestly why people use swords.

I certainly have thoughts on this subject, but I'm not 100% sure where the sweet spot is or even theoretically "should" be. And it probably varies greatly from table to table. I just know that too much complexity bogs things down, and too much abstraction starts to feel weird (to me, at least).

Thoughts? Anybody else want to weigh in?
I like a more generalist, capable character, sometimes skill systems produce a one trick pony that aren't very fun. Also a lot of systems lack real advancement, so out the door they should be 90% of what they are.
 

JohnSnow

Hero
Is Academics useful? Language? Seamanship? Does one really have to use Common Knowledge?
The rule is always "if you don't care about a thing, it's pointless to bother tracking it." But I would offer the following replies:

Academics - This skill covers everything from Research (the archives kind), to Law, to Writing, to Economics and Business. Basically, if it's a college degree that isn't art or science, this is where it lands. A Professor of Archaeology, a Lawyer, and a Journalist would all have training in Academics.

Language - Unlike most skills, I would argue that the fun way to handle language is binary, so this is actually a catch-all term for a pile of languages, and you either know a language or you don't. Don't care about it? Ditch it.

Seamanship - This is a situationally useful skill, depending on the campaign. It covers handling sailboats, canoes, kayaks, navigating, and so on. It could be hand-waved in most campaigns, especially if PCs leave the heavy-lifting to hired hands, but if you tend to run pirate campaigns, it probably shouldn't be.

Are some of these replaceable? Can I do the same things with one or more of these skills? Can I conceal a stolen purse with stealth or thievery or bluff? Can I rally troops with language, performance, or persuasion? If I have no fighting skill, can I use athletics instead?
I can't tell if you're trying to be difficult or genuinely confused.

"Stealth" is hiding. "Thievery" is the catch-all for picking locks, disarming traps, and picking pockets because they're the skills required for being a "Rogue," "Thief," "Burgle-Hobbit," or whatever you want to call it.

"Bluff" is one of my "Social skills" (along with Intimidation and Persuasion) which I could make more obvious by grouping them, but I was listing things alphabetically. I like the idea of drawing a line between am I trying to scare someone, convince them, or get away with a lie. I think it's interesting to have PCs decide what their approach is, so I want three skills. A Paladin who threatens to torture someone (but doesn't plan to follow through on it) is engaging in "Bluff," not "Intimidate." That's a very different thing to be good at.

"Performance" = Performing Arts. That would include acting, dancing, singing, and playing musical instruments with the intent to provoke an emotional response. And probably a few other things. A good dancer is probably trained in Athletics too. I'd say a good actor probably also needs Bluff to be convincing, but maybe that's an argument that Acting shouldn't be here. But from the "what's the intention?" thing, maybe it should be. But as for dancing, think of it like how they score Gymnastics or Figure-Skating at the Olympics - Technical Merit: Athletics. Artistic Merit? Performance.

"Athletics" is simply the catch-all term for things not covered by other physical skills, like climbing, swimming, running, jumping and acrobatics. Fighting? Sorry, separate skill. No system is perfect. But what we don't need is a "Skiing" skill when "Athletics" will do fine.

This sort of tells me that the 5 Core Skills don't belong in the same skill system, because it's assumed everyone can do them. That breaks up the definition of "skills"; do they require training, set characters apart, represent something that you can't really do without some level of development with them?
I feel like this needs clarifying. If the skill system in question only has "trained" and "not," you would be correct. In a level-based game, the "Core Skills" aren't necessary. They're intended to reflect novice level competence that all adventurers acquire in the course of growing up.

However, I personally hate systems that try to put all the heavy lifting of skill differentiation on attributes. Sure, native talent matters, but so does training. This system would need modifying for something like D&D where all your skills simply improve whenever you "go up in level."

Common Knowledge exists to cover the basic things most character in a setting would know - local history, cooking, religions, etc. This is also where things like reading, writing, and basic arithmetic go. It's also where a lot of the marginally useful skills (cooking, for example) would land. Could many parts of this one in particular be covered by an untrained check in some more applicable skill? I guess, but "can do basic math perfectly fine but struggles with science" and similar examples are a common enough condition that it feels like it needs representation. And since we already need a "where the hell does cooking go?" category, let's let it do more. One could also have "common knowledge" reflect "background knowledge" the character has when the campaign starts, and vary from PC to PC. The farmer probably has a different "common knowledge" skillset than the guy who was a sailor.

As a final note: no matter how clear I think it is, a clever person is ALWAYS going to be able to make arguments for crossover applicability, especially if all you have are skill names, not descriptions. I've thought the list through pretty thoroughly, but it might not be compact enough for everyone. And I'm sure someone is going to be able to pull out a "But what about..."
 
Last edited:

Thourne

Hero
For years now I've had a preference for systems that handle skills by not using them.
Instead they give characters descriptive elements that explain their skill areas.
Examples:
Big City Corporate Accountant - Roll it for knowing about living in the big city, math, accounting, general business knowledge.
Night Shift Cabbie - Rolled for knowing directions, where things are, places to avoid, driving.

That sorta thing
 

Remove ads

Top