What We Lose When We Eliminate Controversial Content

[Maxperson]

OTOH, not that long ago, there was a fairly large kerfuffle at a con in England (and I'm blanking on the exact details) where the DM did EXACTLY this at the convention, the characters woke up with "sore butts" and the result was a fairly well known DM was ejected from the con.

Man thrown out of UK Games Expo after role-play gang rape row

One woman participating in the game branded the incident "appalling" and said the games master enjoyed the "shock factor of it"

www.mirror.co.uk

THIS is what I'm talking about when I talk about including something like slavery and Dark Sun. Because, it's never JUST a setting book. It's also public play. And tens of thousands of gamers routinely play with strangers.

That was really bad, but also went significantly farther than "you wake up with sore butts." Not that I'd do the sore butts thing any longer. I'm not in high school anymore.

 

[Maxperson]

That makes absolutely no sense and fails as an argument. The Force is fundamental because the entire story would literally not work if it were removed. One of the most important parts to the original trilogy is "Luke learns the ways of The Force and becomes a Jedi Knight." The Force and the Jedi who use it, as a mix of both magic and martial arts, are what separates Star Wars from basically every other sci fi/sci fantasy story ever made. Nothing else in Star Wars is truly unique to it--except for the light sabers, perhaps, but I'm pretty sure that there are other space operas or planetary romances with swords. Lots of sci fi settings have aliens, spaceships, FTL drives, hives of scum and villainy, intelligent robots, totalitarian empires, good vs. evil morality, etc. Even psychic powers aren't really unique in SF, but the Force-using space samurai are.

If slavery were removed from Dark Sun, there are still many, many things that set it apart, and slavery isn't unique to Dark Sun like The Force is unique to Star Wars.

You can't declare an argument "fails" just because you disagree with it.

And you can in fact make Star Wars(the story) without the force. Luke is just a farm boy turned hero who becomes an ace pilot and destroys the death star. It wouldn't be Star Wars as we know it, but it would still be the same basic story. Just like Dark Sun without slavery could still tell the same basic stories, but would not be Dark Sun as we know it.

 

[Maxperson]

Unless you've only just reached the ripe old age of 18-20, what was funny back then was a mix of both adolescent humor and the baked-in bigotry of the time. I assume you're not at all homophobic or find rape funny, but "sore butts" is a homophobic joke that makes light of rape.

It's insensitive and makes light of rape, but it's not homophobic. A phobia is an irrational fear, so homophobia is an irrational fear of gay people. The DM saying that a PC wakes up with a sore butt is not enough to say that the DM has a fear of gay people.

 

[MGibster]

It's insensitive and makes light of rape, but it's not homophobic. A phobia is an irrational fear, so homophobia is an irrational fear of gay people. The DM saying that a PC wakes up with a sore butt is not enough to say that the DM has a fear of gay people.

Sometimes words and phrases in English don't make a lot of sense. Sure, if we're going by the pattern of how phobia is used for other things, homophobia would mean fear of instead of just having bigoted beliefs. That ship sailed a long time ago. Being bigoted against gay people is homophobic. That's what it means and how it's widely understood here in the United States at least.

 

[Maxperson]

Sometimes words and phrases in English don't make a lot of sense. Sure, if we're going by the pattern of how phobia is used for other things, homophobia would mean fear of instead of just having bigoted beliefs. That ship sailed a long time ago. Being bigoted against gay people is homophobic. That's what it means and how it's widely understood here in the United States at least.

Pretty much all the definitions of homophobic back me up. Just because a lot of people misuse the term, doesn't mean that those of us who don't misuse it have to accept their error. If we did, pretty much everyone is a hero.

 

[theCourier]

Pretty much all the definitions of homophobic back me up. Just because a lot of people misuse the term, doesn't mean that those of us who don't misuse it have to accept their error. If we did, pretty much everyone is a hero.

Congrats on not understanding how language evolves and works, then?

 

[AnotherGuy]

OTOH, not that long ago, there was a fairly large kerfuffle at a con in England (and I'm blanking on the exact details) where the DM did EXACTLY this at the convention, the characters woke up with "sore butts" and the result was a fairly well known DM was ejected from the con.

Man thrown out of UK Games Expo after role-play gang rape row

One woman participating in the game branded the incident "appalling" and said the games master enjoyed the "shock factor of it"

www.mirror.co.uk

THIS is what I'm talking about when I talk about including something like slavery and Dark Sun. Because, it's never JUST a setting book. It's also public play. And tens of thousands of gamers routinely play with strangers.

Yeah that's not equivalent to the joke @MGibster described at all. One is a joke which is ok amongst like-minded friends (not the general public), the other is rape. Making the two equivalent is misleading. The rape of characters is not ok even within a home game. There is no TPR, like what happened at that con.

We have a player who happens to be gay at the table - the players including him make gay jokes and have done the sore butt jokes. I as DM do not rape the characters. That's mad and not comparable at all.

 

[Sepulchrave II]

This is nuance that seems to get lost in the scrum. An RPG product isn't just going to be used at a table where everyone knows each other and have all at least kinda sorta come to some sort of agreement on how to deal with stuff like this. I game with strangers a lot. I know that after the end of my current campaign, I'm losing two of my five regular players to real life stuff, which means I'll be shopping for new players again in the near future.

The LAST thing I want to do is have to deal with something like slavery in a public game.

I think this is an important point, and I hadn't really considered it before. It does make me think that an uncontroversial baseline is a responsibility of the large publishers.

Can you tell me which RPG someone might played at a con that features gang rape as part of the setting? Or sore butts? Because if it's not part of the setting, I don't see how this is an argument in favor of your position.

I recently did some digging around a scenario called Bar-Room Brawl from White Dwarf #11. It was reprinted in Best of White Dwarf Scenarios I and is presented as a light-hearted one-shot, with pregenerated characters involved in an Old West style bar fight. Unfortunately, the motivation of one of the pregens is "you want a woman, either voluntarily or by rape."

I'm sure this scenario was played at various local clubs. It was at mine - I remember because a guy called Martin played the rapist. He was around 12.

This particular rabbit hole led me to Dragon #10, which had rules for orgies.

I mean, times change, and so does the game's audience. I think we're in a better place when we don't provide a framework for teenage boys to indulge their power fantasies.

 

[CapnZapp]

Good thing that's not happening then, lol. Have you seen all the shows, movies, books, games, etc. coming out today? People discussing and criticizing instances where sensitive topics are mishandled or could have been handled better aren't banning them. They're exercising their freedom of speech to discuss them.

You can put out whatever you want, but you can't control how people interact or discuss it.

Don't make it out as if I am the controlling one, please. The only "control" I wish we do not exercise is "discussing" a work by burning it (figuratively or literally) or pillorying its authors.

You are absolutely free to discuss them. The subject here isn't me controlling you. The subject is whether products are allowed to be published, enjoyed, read, discussed with controversial content. (As a reminder, I responded to MGibster saying "The fact that you're not personally comfortable with it doesn't make it wrong that other people are"). It can at first blush appear attractive to shut down any content that makes someone, anyone, uncomfortable, but you should quickly realize it can't end well.

What is at stake is instead whether you see the catastrophic disadvantages of accusing the author/creator of sharing any narrow-minded, bigoted, cruel, (etc) characters' beliefs or world views, and the shortsighted nature of the solution where we "eliminate" (to reuse the threadstarter's choice of words) any controversial content?

It can be hard to separate a director or writer or adventure designer's personal beliefs from those that come to light in their movie, novel or scenario. But there is no alternative if we want a cultural space where creativity is free from various edicts, moral codes, and political and religious control.

This is not a theoretical worry in our little hobby corner. There are already ttrpg forums where you are permabanned for voicing this concern, after all.


Regards,

 

[Bagpuss]

I am somewhat surprised by both the 40+ numbers and the 15-19 numbers. 20-24 as the primary on ramp feels very different than the historical assumption for the game. And that absolute cliff after 40. Wow.

I imagine that most 40+ just aren't playing D&D at least in the current version, so aren't appearing on WotC demographics. If you use @Hussar's anecdotes about at convention attendance their are still plenty of people in the 40+ range, even if that seems a small percentage.

But to be honest 20-24 you've got the time and the money to spend on your own hobbies, plus the social circle of friends with the same before you get things like mortgages and families to eat into all those. So no wonder that is so high. Also you have the social media and Critical Role effect, both are really pushing D&D in that age range.