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What We Lose When We Eliminate Controversial Content

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Hussar

Legend
Which Adventurer's League adventure were you forced to either run or play that had problematic content, and did they hold a gun to your head or just apply electro shock pads?

If WotC bangs out a Dark Sun book, then they will have a Dark Sun AL season.

But, I have an AL adventure right now on my hard drive that features slavery. When I get home, I’ll put it up.

But now that’s three people who would rather kick me out of the hobby instead of listening to me or trying to compromise.

Yeah, the hobby has been so incredibly welcoming to various viewpoints. :erm:
 

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Bagpuss

Legend
If WotC bangs out a Dark Sun book, then they will have a Dark Sun AL season.

But, I have an AL adventure right now on my hard drive that features slavery. When I get home, I’ll put it up.

But now that’s three people who would rather kick me out of the hobby instead of listening to me or trying to compromise.

Yeah, the hobby has been so incredibly welcoming to various viewpoints. :erm:
Explain to me how this is, kicking you out of the hobby, when the hobby is so board a roof?

You've got everything from the Radiant Citadel or Lost Mines of Phandalin, from the sci-fi of The Expanse and Cyberpunk RED to the horror of Call of Cthulhu, you could adventure in film worlds of The Labyrinth, Aliens, Lord of the Rings and many others, you can play as a Thirst Sword Lesbian or a Shield Madien. I've not even touched on the really small independent stuff you can find of Drivethrurpg or itch.io.

And if you can't find something you like in all of that, then make your own adventurers like countless other people before, that is part of the point of the hobby.

The hobby has never been so diverse in what's available. No body is preventing you from playing what you want to play or forcing you to play something you don't want to. There is no requirement to play every AL scenario.

That's the compromise, don't engage in content you don't like. It's what everyone gets to do.

So please explain to me how one Adventurer's League scenario, the possibility of slavery in Dark Sun and three people are kicking you out of the hobby?

I mean even if you find me and a couple of other posters terribly obnoxious, and the fact we might like to include slavery as a plot device absolutely horrific, doesn't the rest of it more than make up for it?
 
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Kaodi

Hero
If WotC bangs out a Dark Sun book, then they will have a Dark Sun AL season.

But, I have an AL adventure right now on my hard drive that features slavery. When I get home, I’ll put it up.

But now that’s three people who would rather kick me out of the hobby instead of listening to me or trying to compromise.

Yeah, the hobby has been so incredibly welcoming to various viewpoints.

I do not get it. Looking over the replies this morning I was considering just dropping the conversation. But then I got to this real headscratcher.

A couple of pages ago you said you are a big white guy. So slavery in particular does not represent some kind of stereotype threat to you specifically. But you are claiming here that people in this thread want to kick you, a big white guy, out of the hobby, because they do not want to listen to your opinions; the opinions of a white guy. When I thought your entire argument was that we should centre considerations for people who are neither a) male, nor b) white.

What gives?
 

the Jester

Legend
Normal people don't just randomly decide to play slavers because slavery technically exists in the setting.
In your experience. Which isn't universal. I have seen pcs keeping or selling slaves or captives in D&D a few times, usually in evil campaigns. Those aren't as rare as you seem to imply, nor does roleplaying an evil character make the player a creep or evil in real life.
 

up until about five years or so ago, there were virtually no women in the hobby
This is just not true. It's deeply ironic that people trying to "do good" are some of the ones keenest to erase women and minorities from the history of TTRPGs.

EDIT:

I'm reminded of the history of MMORPGs. In the EverQuest/DAoC era, about 30-40% of players were women (and I mean players, not characters, to be clear - that was more like 50%). This was reliably surveyed by Nick Yee and others. In the WoW era, these numbers continued, decreasing slightly as a percentage as a huuuuuge tidal wave of teen to early twenties boys descended on the hobby, but remained above 30% (and started going up again as WoW's appeal broadened out).

But it was notable that some groups of people resolutely refused to believe this, because in their guilds, everyone was male. So clearly the women in other guilds were "lying" about being women, because as the "witty" phrase said back then "there are no women on the internet" (i.e. anyone saying they're female is just a man trying to scam you, a truly incredible misogynist claim).

And they were wrong - we had voice chat and even video back then - and the were even wrong about there being no women in their guilds - there were, but they had to pretend to be male to avoid having misogyny or sexual harassment directed at them - and a lot of those women ended up leaving for less-horrific guilds.

Eventually most of those people grew up, and those denialist attitudes largely faded away apart from in the grimiest corners of the 'net - there's still huge sexism/misogyny in online gaming but it's not the same "women don't exist" kind.

Why am I bringing this up? Because I saw a 20-something (now, so like born in about 2000 god help us all - I was playing EQ before he was born) on reddit claiming that there were no women in MMOs in the early WoW era (he didn't even seem to be aware that there were earlier MMOs, and casually dismissed it as meaningless when it was pointed out), and he knew this, because people had told him so, and he'd read forum posts where people said it. And a bunch of kids who were also not there at the time, were of course agreeing with him. It wasn't until he got yelled at by a lot of MMO-grogs who actually were there and then gradually downvoted into oblivion that it got sorted. And he kept saying he was right all the way down.

I'm not drawing a straight comparison here but it's certainly reminiscent of the attitude to me - "there are no women on the internet".
Excellent job on being technically correct. Well done you.
This is an extremely unhelpful, anti-discussion and self-congratulatory attitude on your part.

The poster wasn't just "technically correct". They were fully correct, and you were attempting to change history - both in terms of what you posted, which was drastically at odds with the reality, and the reality itself.
I would be very interested to see what the responses would be in, in a society that was 80% white, you expressed the belief that minorities were "virtually non-existent" .
Quite.

By that logic, minority ethnicities are "virtually non-existent" in Europe, because most European countries are over 80% white - Britain is 87% white, for example. Yet our prime minister, our secretary of state and others are minority ethnicities, and I don't think the 13% of the country who are non-white regard themselves as "virtually non-existent".

Personally, @Hussar, I'd suggest that instead of digging the hole deeper on this comment, you maybe admit you were wrong? Even I am capable of doing this on occasion. And claiming people want to "kick you out of the hobby" because they disagree is a bit dramatic, no? If this level of disagreement what "people want to kick you out of the hobby" looks like, then about 50% of ENworld wants to kick me out of the hobby lol. Which I suspect is untrue.
 
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the Jester

Legend
Considering actual bigots in the real world, right now, think that nazis and slavery are both good, many of them are violent, and some of them are in positions of political power--no, it's not acceptable.
I'm curious- how do you feel about games like Axis and Allies and, more specifically, the players who enjoy running the Germans?
 

Imaro

Legend
Explain to me how this is, kicking you out of the hobby, when the hobby is so board a roof?

You've got everything from the Radiant Citadel or Lost Mines of Phandalin, from the sci-fi of The Expanse and Cyberpunk RED to the horror of Call of Cthulhu, you could adventure in film worlds of The Labyrinth, Aliens, Lord of the Rings and many others, you can play as a Thirst Sword Lesbian or a Shield Madien. I've not even touched on the really small independent stuff you can find of Drivethrurpg or itch.io.

And if you can't find something you like in all of that, then make your own adventurers like countless other people before, that is part of the point of the hobby.

The hobby has never been so diverse in what's available. No body is preventing you from playing what you want to play or forcing you to play something you don't want to. There is no requirement to play every AL scenario.

That's the compromise, don't engage in content you don't like. It's what everyone gets to do.

So please explain to me how one Adventurer's League scenario, the possibility of slavery in Dark Sun and three people are kicking you out of the hobby?

I mean even if you find me and a couple of other posters terribly obnoxious, and the fact we might like to include slavery as a plot device absolutely horrific, doesn't the rest of it more than make up for it?

Isn't the reverse true? There is older edition material to convert as well as professionally published pseudo-Dark Sun campaigns along with internet homebrewed conversions all available that can easily be substituted in for an official WotC produced one... so why not just play in/use one of those as opposed to trying to get WotC to publish something they feel would damage their brand?
 

Bagpuss

Legend
Isn't the reverse true?

No, I don't think the fact I don't want to roleplay as Thirsty Sword Lesbian is kicking me out of the hobby.

There is older edition material to convert as well as professionally published pseudo-Dark Sun campaigns along with internet homebrewed conversions all available that can easily be substituted in for an official WotC produced one... so why not just play in/use one of those as opposed to trying to get WotC to publish something they feel would damage their brand?

Oh sorry different reverse gear...

I'm not saying they have to, just that the option to produce controversial content should be encourage. After all if we didn't allow controversial content we never would have got products like Thirsty Sword Lesbians... hmm the more I say it the more appealing it is becoming...

Plus it is on offer at the moment as part of the $5 bundle for

TTRPGs for Trans Rights in Florida​

 

Imaro

Legend
No, I don't think the fact I don't want to roleplay as Thirsty Sword Lesbian is kicking me out of the hobby.



Oh sorry different reverse gear...

I'm not saying they have to, just that the option to produce controversial content should be encourage. After all if we didn't allow controversial content we never would have got products like Thirsty Sword Lesbians... hmm the more I say it the more appealing it is becoming...

Plus it is on offer at the moment as part of the $5 bundle for

TTRPGs for Trans Rights in Florida​

I'm not connecting the dots...How is Thirsty Sword Lesbian controversial content? Are you implying someone's chosen sexual preference is in some way akin to slavery? I'm honestly not getting this one.
 

so why not just play in/use one of those as opposed to trying to get WotC to publish something they feel would damage their brand?
I don't think anyone is "trying to get" WotC to publish it - rather we're discussing why they haven't, and why they might think it would "damage the brand".

Honestly the most convincing reason anyone has come up with is that WotC-published D&D in the 5E era is resolutely PG-13, leaning even a little towards PG, despite the violence inherent in the system. It's not even really a slavery thing from that perspective.
 

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