What We Lose When We Eliminate Controversial Content

[Kariotis]

Some things to consider though, which I think shows this is more about overall balance than anything else, the 90s Vampire RPG, brought in a lot of women, and that had much more sexuality to it than D&D. Also at that time, vampire novels by female authors were huge (some male authors too, but a ton of female authors were emerging). I used to be very into that genre of horror and so much of it was laden with sensuality, sex, etc. The female writers explored that too (albeit from a slightly different point of view than the male writers). Or take the romance novel. Fabio was a huge celebrity, in part for being a beefcake on the cover of Romance novels, and those mostly have a female readership I believe. I have a cousin who is an artist. She has no interest in titillation or pornography but she often incorporates sexuality and nudity into her art. And it is done in a way that shows a range of things from the beauty of the form, to vulnerability, to power, etc. Most of the time she focuses on the female form, but she does do male images occasionally as well. That is just an artistic choice in her case, which I think is valid.

Well, you mention the important part: Vampire was a lot more balanced and nuanced in its representation, especially for its time. A lot of it was geared at queer, LGBTQ+ folks, disabled people, and a lot of it spoke directly to women, or was even made by women for women. Also, it was often explicitly erotic instead of trying to fly the sexiness in under the radar like chainmail bikinis did. In other words - Vampire's own issues and missteps notwithstanding - it's actually a prime example that there is a place for healthy eroticism sans power dynamics in tabletop RPG art.

 

[MGibster]

Is she choosing those outfits herself, or is there a costume designer behind the scenes putting together her ensembles? A lot of times it feels like her and entertainers like her are selling a "female empowerment fantasy" more than they're actually being empowered women.

When it comes to Beyoncé, Beyoncé does what Beyoncé wants. We're talking about a woman who had the clout to keep an album secret until the day she dropped it on the public. Beyoncé isn't so much an artist as she is a force of nature. I don't know if a costume designer picks out her outfits, but Beyoncé has the final decision in what she chooses to wear. Beyoncé is in a class of her own and it's difficult to compare her to other successful artists. She's like the sun and all others orbit her magnificent radiance.

 

[Micah Sweet]

Yeah, these comments all sound pretty harmless to me. Or is it puritanical to expect a wide range diverse art for many people and tastes in your tabletop RPG, not mainly art that arouses erotic titillation mainly aimed at cis-gender heterosexual males?

Is that what's being asked for? Certainly not be everyone here.

 

[Micah Sweet]

Well, you seemed to imply that people who have an issue with sexualized art in tabletop RPGs and pushing back against this being called "puritanical" or "taking the pitchforks out" are in the wrong by supplying a number of quotes from the thread, and I replied to that. I'm not taking offence with your personal views, but with that of some parts of tabletop roleplayer demographics who would agree that "there's nothing wrong with rpg art as is".

I thought we agreed above that this issue has been significantly reduced. Are you saying that it's still a serious problem?

 

[Kariotis]

Is that what's being asked for? Certainly not be everyone here.

In the same way few people openly call others racist slurs, no - but that doesn't mean there is no problem with racism, some victories are won, and the battlegrounds are shifting, but you gotta keep up the fight. In the same way, that kind of depiction in TTRPG art was the default way of painting fantasy art for tabletop RPGs for the latter quarter of the last century and, very much like colonialism and racism, the attitudes are so ingrained and normalized that people with a certain amount of privilege often don't recognize when they still prevail in art.

EDIT:

I thought we agreed above that this issue has been significantly reduced. Are you saying that it's still a serious problem?

It has most definitely significantly improved. It is also most definitely still a serious problem.

EDIT 2: Edited for clarity.

 

[HectorsNemesis]

My post was obviously tongue and cheek and you're smart enough to know that.
No one is asking for erotica within D&D. I just wonder why when that was mentioned, you didn't think that comment was mischaracterised.

If one has purchased D&D 5E, one would realize that there is no danger of WotC ever including beautiful art in their products. ;-)

 

[Bagpuss]

So, with that posit, the question to consider becomes: How is that sexuality displayed and handled? What is the way that sexuality is expressed in the game?

Well looking at the 1st Edition V:tM the female character of Shelzza is displayed naked in six illustrations in the first two chapters, has a outfit with a slit to the waist showing her full leg and side of her bum, in another six illustrations, didn't seem to put a lot of women playing the game.

 

[Bagpuss]

It has most definitely significantly improved. It is also most definitely still a serious problem.

Can you give and example from a recent TTRPG product that you think it a serious problem?

 

[Kariotis]

Well looking at the 1st Edition V:tM the female character of Shelzza is displayed naked in six illustrations in the first two chapters, has a outfit with a slit to the waist showing her full leg and side of her bum, in another six illustrations, didn't seem to put a lot of women playing the game.

See, that's the old thing. One has to continuously point out that women like sex and enjoy sexy illustrations - if it fits the theme and the playstyle, and is geared at a diverse audience, and is supplied by diverse creators, as it does in much of Vampire. In many other games it often doesn't.

EDIT:

Can you give and example from a recent TTRPG product that you think it a serious problem?

It's the pervasiveness of the attitudes that is the problem, not the individual product.

 

[Irlo]

I agree that men's and boy's behavior was a larger barrier to entry into the RPG sphere for women than the artwork in the books.

And I know from experience though that artwork contributes to the problem. Women I know who early on started gaming did so in spite of sexist art. The women I knew weren't prudes by any measure, but they were off-put by sexualized art in gaming books. Fortunately, although some examples are egregious, it wasn't prevelant in the books I used at the table. Also, I gamed in mixed groups of adults and teenagers, and the sexualized art was embarrasing for the teens. It didn't keep them from joining the adults at the table, but it did make them uncomfortable. No one was deliberately displaying the sexualized art, but it was still a problem.

It reminds me of women I know who as girls were interested in sports and got that one annual issue of Sports Illustrated. One issue out of 52 was enough to inform women where they stood in the sports world.