What We Lose When We Eliminate Controversial Content

[Micah Sweet]

I thought our point here was to learn something about how the people playing these games feel, not win a rhetorical battle. So what is "the evidence"? The evidence is, for one, the women who tell us they don't want to play the game or feel uncomfortable because they dislike the art style with their overrepresentation of stereotypically beautiful, slim women who are on average a lot younger than the men, and who are more often dressed in revealing outfits drawn for the titillation of stereotypically male viewers than the other way around. And you can grab almost any TTRPG release, even today, flip through the art and see that these women have a point. So what I would say is: listen to the women and marginalized voices around you and what they have to say, and you will hear a wide range of opinions. That's much more important than us exchanging our own personal views on a forum.

I thought a lot more women have entered the hobby in recent years. That's what people are saying, and that's been my experience as well. When does it stop being a serious problem? How much of a balance do we need to achieve before we can just keep this in mind and move forward? I'm looking for the point where "serious problem" becomes downgraded to "something we have to think about".

 

[Snarf Zagyg]

I thought a lot more women have entered the hobby in recent years. That's what people are saying, and that's been my experience as well. When does it stop being a serious problem? How much of a balance do we need to achieve before we can just keep this in mind and move forward? I'm looking for the point where "serious problem" becomes downgraded to "something we have to think about".

More importantly, is the claim (as I understood it) that this is a serious problem now?

From my perspective, I can see that the TTRPG hobby in general, and D&D specifically, is much much much more welcoming to minorities, to women, and to the LGBTQI+ community than it has ever been. While nothing is perfect, there is a profound difference between today and, say, the 1970s, or even the early 2000s.

And part of the change is that there has been a seachange in how books are written, and in the types of art that we see in a typical book. So I am having trouble squaring what I see (and have seen over time) with the statement by @Kariotis that this is currently a serious problem.

 

[MGibster]

Oh, my God! I forgot how bad the cover of Doom of Odin was from Avalance Press.

 

[Snarf Zagyg]

Oh, my God! I forgot how bad the cover of Doom of Odin was from Avalance Press.

I just looked that up.

That just looks .... profoundly uncomfortable.

 

[BrokenTwin]

Oh, my God! I forgot how bad the cover of Doom of Odin was from Avalance Press.

Wow, that is... impressively bad on a few different levels.

 

[Umbran]

I thought a lot more women have entered the hobby in recent years. That's what people are saying, and that's been my experience as well. When does it stop being a serious problem?

My wife is a veterinarian. One of the most common errors she see with clients is their saying, "Yes, I gave my pet the medicine. It worked, my pet got better. So, I stopped giving the medicine." They then get surprised when the problem comes back.

Cheesecake art has reduced over time. Women entered the hobby. That there are now women in the hobby does not mean we can relax, and return to using cheesecake art.

Objectifying art will likely continue to be a problem in gaming products until such time as we have corrected other gender-imbalance issues in our culture more broadly.

 

[Voadam]

Oh, my God! I forgot how bad the cover of Doom of Odin was from Avalance Press.

Yeah, the archery form is terrible.

Its too bad, it was a great module from my read through with my favorite trap/puzzle set up ever which had multiple ways to deal with the situation.

 

[AnotherGuy]

Its too bad, it was a great module from my read through with my favorite trap/puzzle set up ever which had multiple ways to deal with the situation.

Well, that is annoying. A rubbish cover hiding a great module.
Proving the old adage right once more.

 

[Micah Sweet]

My wife is a veterinarian. One of the most common errors she see with clients is their saying, "Yes, I gave my pet the medicine. It worked, my pet got better. So, I stopped giving the medicine." They then get surprised when the problem comes back.

Cheesecake art has reduced over time. Women entered the hobby. That there are now women in the hobby does not mean we can relax, and return to using cheesecake art.

Objectifying art will likely continue to be a problem in gaming products until such time as we have corrected other gender-imbalance issues in our culture more broadly.

Hence, "something to think about" instead of "a serious problem". I never said Mission Accomplished.

 

[Bedrockgames]

My wife is a veterinarian. One of the most common errors she see with clients is their saying, "Yes, I gave my pet the medicine. It worked, my pet got better. So, I stopped giving the medicine." They then get surprised when the problem comes back.

Cheesecake art has reduced over time. Women entered the hobby. That there are now women in the hobby does not mean we can relax, and return to using cheesecake art.

Objectifying art will likely continue to be a problem in gaming products until such time as we have corrected other gender-imbalance issues in our culture more broadly.

But the other danger is throwing out the baby with the bathwater. I think everyone here would agree, if the art were all or mostly objectifying and all racy, especially in the big flagship RPGs like D&D and Pathfinder, that would be an issue that could drive away players, and just make the game less mainstream in general (regardless of the gender issues, more skin on cover art is going to make people embarrassed to be seen reading or buying something, going to present more awkward social situations for people). But what I see in a lot of these conversations is an idea that more sensual, more sexy art, even art that just is a study of the beauty of the human form, is something we need to be concerned about. Again for me, I don't particularly gravitate towards this kind of art in an RPG, but I do think it is an important flavor to keep in a publishers and artists arsenal because sometimes that is what is called for. It also really matters what game you are talking about. If there is a niche game trying to capture the spirit of a Boris Vallejo era sword and sorcery, that exists within its own space in the hobby, it will attract its audience but it is unlikely to really shape the flavor of art in D&D itself.

One thing I will say about D&D art, is I really think an advantage of the 2E era was they could explore different art styles without it seeming like one particular thing was being given primacy. You could have Brom art in Dark Sun, which at the time to me, felt pretty progressive, in that yes it had midriff and pecs, but it was also showing off the bodies of characters who were more about being in peak physical shape (and the woman and men both had muscles that could wield a heavy sword). Then you had Ravenloft, which had some of the Caldwell style art (which could show off skin) but the interior art, when it did go there, tended to be more sensual and dreamlike (which I think fit a gothic romance style). Both those settings were settings that used to get a lot of women gamers in my group.