D&D General Kobold Press Going Down a Dark Road

[GMforPowergamers]

WotC vs 3PPs

I think of it as 1 company vs manuy myself.

No.

Because you're not dealing with 200-300 more, are you? That's nonsense.

I actually double hit the 0 on my phone, I meant 20-30 the 30 was right not the 200 but I can see you had a 50/50 shot of getting my meaning. my fault for not catching the typo

You're dealing only with what you actually choose to add.

if I was playing zelda on my switch sure... but I play at 2 tables a week and (inthory but not for months) 1 table a month those tables have some overlap and so just counting tuesday/saterday that is 7 or 8 of us per week. we would have to have a consensuss on what company to trust, to do so one of us would have to put in the work to learn 1 company then pitch it, and if we do that we might end up all with different companies... so out of the 20 or 30 out there (before counting DMs guild that Might make it into the 100s) we would be down to 5-8 (depending on overlap) to talk about and as such when I DM I could end up with any number of them to consider... and I put MORE time in then some of us do.

now for me to choose a company to go with I need to come on here and other places to look to see what others think. then pick 1, then listen to the other pitches others have... OR as we have we can just all agree not to put each other through that and player facing content will be WotC and any editional stuff will be DM side only.

IF we are to vary from that it is normally for a system (I have TORG as my go to, but we did do the middle earth 5e system 2 or 3 times)

So you're illustrating the lie here - people pretending like 3PPs are this huge extra balance burden.

I'm not pretending, I don't want to use the time to do it. I HAVE done it... mostly in 3e/3.5 but a bit in 4e. We decided as a group NOT to do it in 5e.

let me tell you I have seen at a 3.5 table, 5 players 1 DM have 17 3pp and multi WOtc books... that 17 sometimes is "2 spells and a feat from this book, a prestige class from that one and a whole optional sub stem from this one for 1 player character)

an example from me. I played in a game as an Avatar (a summoner base class 3pp) that took a summoning prestige class from a wotc book, but had feats out of 2 other 3pp books and was asking for spells out of the sword and sorcery studios books and I had a magic item teh DM put in from yet another 3pp, so I had at the table 3 wotc books, 5 or 6 3pp books of my own and would take stuff form other peoples...
I don't want to DM a table like that in 2023, even though in 2006 it sounded fun.

They're not. You - as a DM - do not have balance/monitor "all 3PPs". You only have to look at the ones you're interested in and actually add to your campaign.

so how do you find the ones you are intrested in? you look through a few right... then everyone at the table looks through a few (maybe some overlap mostlikely at least some but who knows) then we have to talk it out and now even if we only narrowed it to 2 each how many is that per table... and remember we start with how many before we narrow it to 2 each?

That's a much smaller number.

for player faceing content we make it 0

 

[GMforPowergamers]

True. One new 5e book is one new 5e book to look at, whether it comes from Kobold Press, EN Publishing, WotC, Mage Hand, or someone else.

1 new book per month (heck sometimes 1 new book per 3 months) compared to say 10 compaies putting out anywhere from 1 a month to 1 per 3 months...

 

[GMforPowergamers]

Yeah if we accept the premise that the 2024 phb won’t be 5e (it will be), then Black Flag sure as hell isn’t either.

agreed

 

[Oofta]

Agreed. If there's any attitude that's deleterious to the 5e community as a whole, it's the idea that WotC stuff is the standard and every other product needs to be looked at with a jaundiced eye because it might not be "balanced" (even though tons of WotC stuff also doesn't meet that standard.)

There are multiple books worth of 3pp material that is straight up better than WotC's stuff.

Then it's a good thing that those 3PP exist for you and are available. Because there is no "standard" judgement of "better". There are qualities of those other products that appeal to you, and it's great that we have such an open game (unlike the TSR days) that they can offer a product to you. Go for it.

On the other hand, you deciding that other products are superior for you, doesn't affect my estimation of the value of WOTC's product to me and my group. I'm not looking at other products with a jaundiced eye, I have a few products from Kobold Press and Nord Games to name a couple. They're ... okay. Mostly supplements that I thought I would use and that ended up gathering dust on my computer. So for me? I don't really bother looking anymore, they simply don't buy enough for me to make it worth my while.

 

[GMforPowergamers]

My problem with 3pp is that in my groups they tend to "open the floodgates". If I allow one 3pp product, all the g'dam players will start bothering me to use some broken stuff they saw

IT isn't just them wanting broken stuff (but look at my screen name i know people who that is true for) it's Ross wanting a new cool warlock pact, and Jim wanting the werewolf class from this, and kurt wanting just these two feats from these two books.... it adds up

 

[Ruin Explorer]

First, I don't think you read all the thread.

That's true.

Second, you literally just called the majority of people who commented earlier on as "whinging" and "equivocating[.]"

I don't think so. I don't think most people "excoriated" the statement. I think a fairly small proportion of commenters did, but did so loudly and repeatedly. If I missed some stunning and brilliant takedown, I apologise, but what I saw was the same equivocation and whinging repeated over and over, not an actual argument.

*Here's what I said, emphasis supplied-
1. Anyone who is paying the slightest bit of attention knows the statement is not provably correct and there is absolutely no real defense of it.

Which is literally equivocation.

It's intentionally avoiding the reality of the issue by talking around.

The reality is, WotC are not going to continue to print the PHB/DMG/MM after 2024 in physical form. As @darjr pointed out, realistically, there will still be plenty on the shelves for quite a while, and even after that, used ones will likely be extremely cheap, but pretending WotC are going to keep publishing them, even though would make no sense whatsoever, and they haven't said they would, just because, technically have definitely said they would is absolutely ludicrous behaviour. Amusing precisely the kind of behaviour normally unfairly allocate to lawyers!

"Not provably correct/true" is just absolutely risible, laughable shenanigans and you trying to argue that you're talking "facts" and stuff whilst using lines like that is funny but nothing else. Particularly re: "Which is closer to 5E??!". That will literally forever be opinion. There will be people arguing which was closer, on this very messageboard, 10 or 20 years from now (assuming it's still here or has some future equivalent). You know this. So frankly it's fine for them to imply that theirs will be closer. Is it marketing? Yes it is marketing. Marketing like WotC is engaging very heavily themselves!

Let me make an assertion, and let's see how you react: Even you, @Snarf Zagyg do not actually believe that WotC will continue to print copies of the 5E (rather than 1D&D) PHB/DMG/MM after 2024.

True or false? Don't give me some quantum superposition nonsense lol.

And as I said, really putting a lie to your "FUD" line was that KP are being, frankly, unrealistic about the electronic future of the 5E PHB/DMG/MM. If they really wanted to go FUD, they'd have said those would end too - in fact, based on what happened to Volo/Mordenkainen's on Beyond, that's not unlikely - there is I guess the get-out that KP maybe believe Roll 20 and Fantasy Grounds will continue to have electronic versions? Or the slim but not impossible chance that WotC will turn the OOP 5E stuff into PDFs for DM's Guild (I doubt it, given Volo/Mordenkainen didn't get that).

As for:

Are you a fortune-teller? Are you Nostradamus? Are you James Cole, the protagonist from 12 Monkeys, sent from the future to Ruin-splain to us mor-ans how the future must happen?

Because if you're not, I think you probably need to be a lot less derogatory in your comments when you are talking about things that (1) haven't happened yet, and (2) have had no official announcements.

I'd Cassandra is probably the closest. But I think it's more like, we all know what's going to happen, and a few people are pretending it won't.

As for "mor-ans", you're obviously putting words into my mouth, which is again, funny at best. Come on dude.

EDIT: LOL the classic move of start an argument, ask for specific answers, then block the person when they give those answers. Like I said, this is high-grade internet right here.

 

[Bolares]

IT isn't just them wanting broken stuff (but look at my screen name i know people who that is true for) it's Ross wanting a new cool warlock pact, and Jim wanting the werewolf class from this, and kurt wanting just these two feats from these two books.... it adds up

mine are absolutelly looking for the broken stuff... the little bastards.

 

[Snarf Zagyg]

mine are absolutelly looking for the broken stuff... the little bastards.

There's nothing as satisfying as a "No."
-Mama Snarf, repeatedly.

 

[Bolares]

The reality is, WotC are not going to continue to print the PHB/DMG/MM after 2024 in physical form. As @darjr pointed out, realistically, there will still be plenty on the shelves for quite a while, and even after that, used ones will likely be extremely cheap, but pretending WotC are going to keep publishing them, even though would make no sense whatsoever, and they haven't said they would, just because, technically have definitely said they would is absolutely ludicrous behaviour. Amusing precisely the kind of behaviour normally unfairly allocate to lawyers!

None of us is disputing this... in fact, stating that this point is obvious is part of our point....

 

[BrokenTwin]

I don't like the rhetorical style Kobold Press is using for marketing Black Flag (the antagonistic approach), but I wouldn't say they're being outright dishonest in their claims. Just laying really heavy on the spin.
I will say they're at a disadvantage, since WotC can pivot their design a lot faster than KP can (more people testing, larger development crew with looser purse strings), so I certainly understand why they worded it the way they did. The only real chance they have to gain customers in the target market (5E core rulebook alternatives) is to take them from the company with 99% of the customer base.

mine are absolutelly looking for the broken stuff... the little bastards.

Yeah, I have a few players that if/when they come to me with 3PP (and they're usually the only ones that do), it's because they've discovered a broken combo they want to get away with. It's usually pretty easy to tell a "this seems like fun" request apart from a "I can break the game with this" request though.