GMs: Guiding Morals in GMing

As a counterpoint, I have been improvising during combat regularly for several decades and cannot think of a time where it hasn't worked out for the better or at least not made much difference.



Well, most of the time I change the encounter parameters or add new features (my usual way of improvising / fudging) not to determine the outcome, but to determine HOW we get to the outcome. So I do quite often add or remove monsters, add or ignore their powers, or add or ignore terrain and effects to make an encounter more fun. Sometimes fun is just not spending 10 more minutes defeating surprisingly tanky enemies, sometimes it's upping mooks' hitpoints because they were not up the standard of the main enemies, sometimes it's having enemies run away because everyone is yawning and it's time to wrap up. Sometimes it's keeping the enemy alive for a turn to let their nemesis have a chance at delivering the KO blow.

Many times it has been when playing with kids and not injuring their animal companions.

For me, the "typical" case is not "the PC's have a run of bad luck"; it's "I, the GM didn't get the encounter pre-planned quite right". Even though I am a good GM, I will make mistakes often enough, and admitting those mistakes and fixing them is, for me, the most common reason I modify and encounter in-flight. I'd estimate about 75% of the time it's to increase the difficulty, and I don't recall a time I've been unhappy with my decision.


That's kind of an odd assertion -- I think the reason everyone does this is to try an improve the narrative. Earlier you said that it made your stories better 33% of the time. for me, it's virtually always made things better -- saved boring time, added fun elements, allowed a hero to meet their nemesis -- good times!


I think you are focusing on changing the outcome of a combat; the strawman here is the thought that people who adapt encounters mid-flow are railroading GMs who want their version of the story to occur, no matter what. But that's a rarity. Most of the time we don't want to modify it to enforce an outcome (I certainly never have done so and based on comments, others rarely do), we do it to make the encounter itself more fun.

Even when we adjust the degree of challenge, it's not to enforce an outcome, but to make the challenge closer to how we had envisaged it. So when I "fudge" and encounter to make it harder, it's not because I want to change the outcome and have the players lose, it's to make the encounter closer to the fun that I was trying to design into it.

For me, this activity of ours is about having fun. That is the primary goal. Saying that you will not modify an encounter mid-flow to make the game more fun for people contradicts that goal. Now maybe when you do make these adjustments it doesn't work out for you, and so you don't do it. Fair enough, not everyone is good at all aspects of GMing. But if you could modify encounters so that everyone has more fun, and you choose not to, then it's you deciding that your principle is more important than your players' fun. And for me, there are very few times that can be the case for any principle I use in GMing.
This is why I really love 4e, decide what level the encounter is, spend the budget, lay things out, add some fun terrain, extrapolate what the 2 sides goals are from the situation, maybe drop on a terrain power or two, I can do ALL of that on the fly during play. The resulting encounters are 90% kick ass. Once in a while I've had one that just sort of misfired, and then usually it gets to the end and there's some narrative solution. Maybe that last bad guy surrenders, or some new situation arises that ends the combat. Maybe here or there the monster just 'dies'. I don't think I ever did any of those things when the outcome was at all in doubt, but in a smallish number of cases it just seemed best to get on with the night's play and not wast 1/2 hour on pointless attack rolls. Frankly, in most cases I'd be fine with a rule like "take a surge of damage and remove that final monster from play immediately."

But that's what I like about 4e, its not pretending to be anything but fun to play. It is a good RPG, but there's no real pretense of 'S' in there.
 

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I disagree that it is more fun for every combat to be stage managed into a medium length scene that the players narrowly win.

Unexpectedly quick victories due to good fortune or good planning are fun. Unexpectedly tough fights and losing occasionally are fun. Rolling dice out in the open so that everyone is in suspense of the outcome is fun.
Yeah, I wouldn't say stage managing everything to a cliff hanger is necessarily good either.
 

What sorts of guiding moral principles govern how you run your games?
I see 5 principles that guide me in GMing...
1) Enabling meaningful choices by players for their characters
2) providing real risks of PC's failing, but not sureties of same.
3) When in doubt, set a difficulty and have them roll
4) Be fair, but err in the player's favor when in doubt
5) the rules are there to be used, but are malleable with group consent.
 

@GrahamWills
Well said, thanks for taking the time to post.

@Micah Sweet
It's not deciding in advance, it's deciding on the spot.

Feel like everyone is making a ton of worst case projections concerning how, how often, and for what reasons people would change up combat. I'll try and throw out a few more examples so if people still want to be grumpy they can at least be grumpy for real reasons:

Fighter rolls max damage on the goblin, smashing it to smithereens. The two goblins next to it freak out and begin to run away...
No rules about morale, but makes the Fighter feel like a badass, gets the party laughing, and everyone is excited for what could happen next.

Walking down a corridor, a wandering giant spider is rolled. It's quickly dispatched the first round, but everyone is on guard now. The Wizard player perks up about how he's reading his Fireball spell. This excites everyone at the table as I congratulate the Wizard on his quick thinking as the cluster of spiders make their way around the bend...
There was only one spider, but the players engagement, excitement, and quick thinking made me change the random encounter on the fly. I make a note to roll on a random treasure table next time their in an empty room as well.

A group of powerful wizards are escorting a prisoner to their tower. The low-level party is outraged and charge the wizards, despite a warning of the strong magic that fills the air. One wizard looks back and with a quick motion explodes the head of a random PC. The rest of the party scrambles away and proceeds to come up with a better plan to free that slave...
No matter how well they rolled, this was going to be a TPK, which didn't really excite me as much as a gory, punchy narrative. Initiative and Save Rolls would have completely killed the momentum, so went right for the kill. Point was made, lessons were learned, and the game gets to keep moving along.

These are all quick examples of manipulating combat off the top of my head. All have to be done with the right game and party in mind; for instance, the last one would fit right into LotFP during a Halloween one-shot. Also, it has to be done sparingly. Combat is already fun as is, all this does is add spice when it's really important. That takes experience on how to read a room, knowing your players, how to improvise, and how to bluff. Like a street magician, the bluffing is not to hide deception, but to keep players wondering when its happening.

Which brings me to another thought: don't ever tell them! If you want to brag about how cool your improvised scene was, do that with your GM buddies! At the very least, wait until the end of the campaign. Maybe a "final session" where you just talk about the campaign and questions can be answered over beers. Hmmm, that sounds pretty fun actually...
 

Seems like the parsimonious way to say this is just that well-written and well-designed games reliably convey their actual rules, either explicitly or implicitly. In such a case norms are likely to be consistent. I believe that is what EGG was addressing way back in '78 in the DMG intro.
Agreed that text such as intros right from the start had normative purpose and consequence. As you know, more recent designers overtly list principles for play as part of their formal game text.

You say "well-written and well-designed" and I agree with that to an extent. Nothing prevents a group bringing their principles to play (indeed, it's harder to stop them, as attested to regularly on these boards.) And it can also be good design to decide to leave principles open... up to each group. More interestingly, a group may choose to ignore or overwrite even concretely expressed principles (also often attested to on these boards.) Either unconsciously or purposefully.

I prefer game texts where designers articulate the principles they had in mind, and I also prefer to uphold those principles. When I see a principle I like, I'm often interested to see how it might be applied elsewhere.
 

I think you are focusing on changing the outcome of a combat; the strawman here is the thought that people who adapt encounters mid-flow are railroading GMs who want their version of the story to occur, no matter what. But that's a rarity. Most of the time we don't want to modify it to enforce an outcome (I certainly never have done so and based on comments, others rarely do), we do it to make the encounter itself more fun.

No, the only strawman here is you think that because I choose not to do it that I don't know how to do it, or you think that because I choose not to do it that I must have some different goal in mind than you do. Of course, it's not to change the outcome of the combat per se in the sense you define of "making the players lose". Even in the case of the Bounty Hunters versus Dr. Fist the mad robot scientist I brought up, my instinct to fudge was not about trying to get the players to lose, but to lengthen the chase out further. The reason either of us fudge is to lengthen or shorten the combat to make it "more fun". Or as you put it:

"to make the challenge closer to how we had envisaged it."

We? We? How many people were involved in planning this combat?

And oh boy does fudging to make an encounter closer to how you imagined it would be exactly describe the very process that I discourage novice DMs from fixating on.

And as for how to fudge, yes, I'm aware of pretty much all the techniques you describe.

As for why our two experiences are wildly different I'm going to assert entirely without evidence some theories that probably aren't fair, but not feel that guilty about it given just how grossly unfair your assumptions were about me:

1) I'm probably better at encounter design than you are. I don't need to do this very often in order to make exciting fights, possibly because I've been consciously trying to forgo the crutch of "fixing" the encounter on the fly for at least the last 30 years.
2) I play systems that are more lethal than what you play and I'm already pushing the edge of that envelope harder than you are. Those tweaking things upward 75% of the time would almost certainly end up with dead PC's quite often in my games.
3) I am playing more often with players that prioritize "Challenge" as core aspect of the aesthetics of play. If I play with players that don't do that, instead of fudging I change systems entirely to play a system that is less lethal, less fiddly, less gritty, etc. If I'm playing with kids that would be emotionally scarred by an injured animal companion, we won't be in a system where that can happen. But in groups that I typically play with, there fun comes from "beating the puzzle" against the (apparent) odds much as the hero in a book or movie seems to win against the odds. But while they want to just barely win as the most fun outcome, the players enjoyment of the play would be harmed if they realized that I was manipulating things so that they were steered to certain outcomes. One way a player can recognize that illusionism is if the GMs plans for the encounter never quite seem to go awry. The existence of encounters that obviously don't go as planned is sort of the proof in the pudding that the game isn't rigged, along with rituals like always rolling "important" rolls in the open (such as critical saving throws by either the PCs or the NPCs). The fact that the PC's get walkovers sometimes, or get their butts handed to them sometimes, or that encounters get grindy sometimes, or whatever proves that the times that the fight with the BBEG that goes down to one roll by one player when half the team is on the ground bleeding out are real and thus makes those victories have more savor in the way that if I had illusionism going on they wouldn't.

For me, this activity of ours is about having fun. That is the primary goal. Saying that you will not modify an encounter mid-flow to make the game more fun for people contradicts that goal.

Utter hogwash. When you play chess or some other board game, do you play badly on purpose to make the game more fun for the other player? Of course not, because you recognize that having fun in that situation depends on all parties involved trying their best.

I'm saying that you will not modify an encounter mid-flow because I've learned that in the long run that is what makes the game more fun, not because I'm trying to deny fun to the players.

But if you could modify encounters so that everyone has more fun, and you choose not to, then it's you deciding that your principle is more important than your players' fun. And for me, there are very few times that can be the case for any principle I use in GMing.

The problem with that assertion is that relies on two falsehoods. The first falsehood is that the GM is omniscient and so can tell at any point whether modifying the situation does result in more fun. The GM isn't omniscient and can't predict accurately how things are going to go if he changes or doesn't change the situation, and so the real situation you end up putting yourself in is fudging the fudging to get the outcomes you already imagined and wanted. If you decide to at all times freely change the outcomes so that you are omniscient, you are no longer playing to find out what happens. You are just letting the players experience your story. And the second falsehood wrapped up in that is that your story is the one that is most fun for the player. If you are always protecting the outcomes from being anything but you envisioned them to be, well sooner or later the players are going to figure that out and it will harm their fun to know that encounters will shrink or grow depending on how well they are doing, and then also you aren't letting the game or the players surprise you which again harms the fun.

So yes, there are a probably a few times where fudging the game is best for the game for whatever reason - inexperienced players, your mistakes as a GM, terrible luck, etc. - but in my experience if those situations aren't very rare, well the game has problems with its level of fun to begin with.
 

Utter hogwash. When you play chess or some other board game, do you play badly on purpose to make the game more fun for the other player? Of course not, because you recognize that having fun in that situation depends on all parties involved trying their best.
Not with chess specifically, because I don't generally play that game, but with other board and video games, absolutely, and we all, myself included, had much more fun than we would have otherwise.
 

Utter hogwash. When you play chess or some other board game, do you play badly on purpose to make the game more fun for the other player? Of course not, because you recognize that having fun in that situation depends on all parties involved trying their best.
So this is incorrect for two reasons:
1) A GM isn't trying to win, they are trying to challenge, under the expectation that a challenge will be more enjoyable. The Players are trying to win, not to challenge the GM. Under your example of Chess, both sides are trying to win ideally, with offering a challenge often being seen as desirable. Mind, this is all ideals, and comes ultimately back to being a moral principle for me. I won't play with a GM who is trying to beat me.
2) Chess only has a single moment of random chance, that being who goes first. Every other moment is purely coming from player choices. While there are TTRPG that has limited randomizing, they are in the minority in the extreme. Random elements can and do lend themselves to exciting moments. But they can also lead to boring, frustrating ones. Part of this is encounter design, but all GMs should be prepared to make alterations when situations call for them.

Also, something that I am seeing understated/overlooked: Demanding rules fidelity be the first guiding principle of running a game overlooks a glaring reality: No rules are perfect. Most rules, are in fact, a work in progress. You need only look to these very forums to show that people constantly fiddle with the rules as written to improve the game experience at their table. I was 8 years old when I saw that the rules for encumbrance were no fun and that the gender based stat limits in the hallowed 1e PHB were pure shenanigans.
 

I would say my goal is to create an environment in which everyone, including myself, can have fun. This is not the thing as making sure everyone is having fun all the time. People make their own choices and are at least partially responsible for their own fun.
 

I would say my goal is to create an environment in which everyone, including myself, can have fun. This is not the thing as making sure everyone is having fun all the time. People make their own choices and are at least partially responsible for their own fun.
Very agree. I think GMs often take on too much responsibility for everyone having overall fun. All you can control is how people feel about your own contributions.
 

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