D&D (2024) How did I miss this about the Half races/ancestries

[SteveC]

You are acting like the discussion about orcs, drow, and now half elves is settled. I don't think that discussion is settled at all. And I think you can be for things like evil orcs, drow, and half elves and half orcs, and be a perfectly good human being. These are things that can add to the game and I feel like we in passing through a cultural moment where people have prepped themselves to find problems in media content that is either innocent, not the biggest deal in the world, or open to more interpretations than the one they are presenting as fact. If these three things bother you, that is fair. Some movies and books bother me that don't bother other people. We all have our tastes, our sensibilities and our moral lenses through which we evaluate media. But I think what is less okay here is the narrowing of what is possible or permissible as an interoperation. I am not a heretic for looking at this stuff and seeing something different than you are seeing. And it isn't me refusing to see evidence. We are both seeing the same evidence and have reached different conclusions.

I can't agree with this more. Is the issue with half-elves settled? Until a couple of days ago, I had never even heard anyone make the argument, and I listen to these discussions quite a bit.

On the issues of orcs or drow, I definitely know the arguments here, but nothing is settled beyond "some people are offended by them and think they are racist." I understand that they are offended, but I certainly don't cede the ground that they actually are offensive. While I certainly respect the feelings, I don't agree that this is somehow something that there is consensus on. There are a ton of different parts of the hobby that I don't like, and a few that I'm genuinely offended by. Why on earth should I expect anyone to care about that? I handle these things by not playing games I don't like, and if a discussion comes up about them, I will say why I don't like the game. And that's about it.

If I were running a game and you told me "I don't like these elements and find them offensive," I'd certainly listen to you and we'd talk. That's because I try to be a decent person and not make a game where people are uncomfortable. At the same time, when I was running Curse of Strahd, I had a player tell me that they basically didn't like horror games. I had to tell them that Curse wasn't the game for them. The next game I ran, we talked about what they liked in a game and I made sure to run that kind of a game because they were my friend. If you don't like orcs or drow or ... you name it, some D&D games won't be for you. That doesn't mean that D&D shouldn't include those elements.

 

[Remathilis]

You are acting like the discussion about orcs, drow, and now half elves is settled. I don't think that discussion is settled at all..

For WotC it is. There is a less than zero chance that WotC is going back to majority-evil Orcs and drow. Both of them are in the PHB for Pelor's sake! You can continue to do whatever you want at your own table, of course, but when it comes to the new books, that fight is DONE!

 

[Bedrockgames]

For WotC it is. There is a less than zero chance that WotC is going back to majority-evil Orcs and drow. Both of them are in the PHB for Pelor's sake! You can continue to do whatever you want at your own table, of course, but when it comes to the new books, that fight is DONE!

For now I think you are right. WOTC appears to be persuaded by that side of the argument. But I still don't think that means the matter is settled for the hobby at large, as there is still a lot of disagreement about this. And while this is just speculation and conjecture based on living through similar periods in media, I do think this is a passing thing, where eventually you will see a return of things like drow and evil orcs (with the perspective of time).

 

[Bedrockgames]

I think that most of this kerfuffle is based on two separate elements that can exist simultaneously and independently of one another.

1. The notion that two different fantasy species can produce offspring is perfectly acceptable, either via nature or magic.
2. The way D&D has presented the half-orc and half-elf invokes some problematic tropes, starting with the name.

I do understand the argument. I just think we are not going to agree about half elves being problematic, or the term half being a problem.

 

[Remathilis]

For now I think you are right. WOTC appears to be persuaded by that side of the argument. But I still don't think that means the matter is settled for the hobby at large, as there is still a lot of disagreement about this. And while this is just speculation and conjecture based on living through similar periods in media, I do think this is a passing thing, where eventually you will see a return of things like drow and evil orcs (with the perspective of time).

How is Paizo handling this? Kobold Press? Critical Role? WotC IMHO was late to this party. Much like changing the term "race", WotC is playing catch up to what the larger community is already discussing.

To whit; Paizo already removed the half-races (and planetouched ones like aasimar and tieflings) and made them specific ancestry feats humans can take. Nobody accused them of being racist. (In fact, their social media is nothing but people saying how Paizo did it right and WotC pooped the bed again).

And no. This isn't a "passing fad" any more than removing race/class restrictions were. Everyone gasped in horror at dwarven wizards and halfling barbarians, but now those concepts are wildly accepted. The smoke don't go back into the bottle.

 

[Pedantic]

To whit; Paizo already removed the half-races (and planetouched ones like aasimar and tieflings) and made them specific ancestry feats humans can take. Nobody accused them of being racist. (In fact, their social media is nothing but people saying how Paizo did it right and WotC pooped the bed again).

To be fair, that would be the case regardless of how WotC handled it, in the current environment.

I think it's pretty clear though that if species has a mechanical impact, then not representing mixed species characters mechanically is insufficient and inappropriate, but that several different means of mechanical representation might be okay. I don't think a feat is a good idea in a 5e environment, primarily because they're such a scarce resource in the game. The only place you can clearly take power from at level 1 when the decision has to be made is background, and stealing from a character's history to represent their biology is not a good look either.

 

[Remathilis]

To be fair, that would be the case regardless of how WotC handled it, in the current environment.

I think it's pretty clear though that if species has a mechanical impact, then not representing mixed species characters mechanically is insufficient and inappropriate, but that several different means of mechanical representation might be okay. I don't think a feat is a good idea in a 5e environment, primarily because they're such a scarce resource in the game. The only place you can clearly take power from at level 1 when the decision has to be made is background, and stealing from a character's history to represent their biology is not a good look either.

That kinda puts them in a no-win situation. They can either use level 1 feats to emulate mixed heritages, create 511 unique species to emulate every parent combo in the PHB, or completely redesign every species to be modular. Or do what they were going to do.

 

[Pedantic]

That kinda puts them in a no-win situation. They can either use level 1 feats to emulate mixed heritages, create 511 unique species to emulate every parent combo in the PHB, or completely redesign every species to be modular. Or do what they were going to do.

I think the third option is the best choice and not as difficult as presented there. You'd have to be careful, but I suspect you could generally designate some abilities that can relatively safely be swapped between species to a level of balance that's good enough for 5e.

That's still not ideal, because then (for example) all mixed goliaths that favor their elven side only have powerful build and never their intrinsic spells and no mixed character with elven heritage has Trance & Keen senses, but at least you could model any mixed species and have some mechanical heft to represent it.

Or heck, they could just give an extra free choice of weakened first level feat to all characters. Then you still have your background element represented by the background feat choice, and it's less important if your extra abilities come from your dwarf ancestor or your tough body, or that time you climbed trees as a kid.

 

[Hussar]

That kinda puts them in a no-win situation. They can either use level 1 feats to emulate mixed heritages, create 511 unique species to emulate every parent combo in the PHB, or completely redesign every species to be modular. Or do what they were going to do.

Well, yeah. That's sort of a given. No matter what WotC does, it will be wrong. So, they might as well do something that takes the least amount of work - pushing it onto the players is the path of least work for them - because, again, you're absolutely right. There is nothing they do that won't be seen as a failure by someone.

I just find it very funny to see people who flat out state that they do not play WotC D&D then having an opinion here. I frankly couldn't care less what Paizo does. I don't play it, I don't read it. I pay zero attention to it. It never ceases to amaze me the amount of effort people will expend on a game that they don't even play.

 

[Hussar]

I think the third option is the best choice and not as difficult as presented there. You'd have to be careful, but I suspect you could generally designate some abilities that can relatively safely be swapped between species to a level of balance that's good enough for 5e.

That's still not ideal, because then (for example) all mixed goliaths that favor their elven side only have powerful build and never their intrinsic spells and no mixed character with elven heritage has Trance & Keen senses, but at least you could model any mixed species and have some mechanical heft to represent it.

Or heck, they could just give an extra free choice of weakened first level feat to all characters. Then you still have your background element represented by the background feat choice, and it's less important if your extra abilities come from your dwarf ancestor or your tough body, or that time you climbed trees as a kid.

I wonder though. Do people take races based on the race abilities or because those races appeal to them. I have a sneaking suspicion that racial mechanics are not very high up on people's list of priorities when creating a character. I might be wrong, but, it would explain why WotC is going the route they are. If people's choices of race are largely for aesthetic reasons, then, well, why bother creating a whole system for mix and match race abilties? It just makes creating a character that bit more complicated. Which, in turn makes these races less appealing.

I can make an Orc character and I have X, Y and Z abilities. Or, I can make a half-orc, half-whatever character, have to take an additional step of going through a list of abilities and make choices. I'm thinking that the added complexity isn't all that appealing.