D&D (2024) How did I miss this about the Half races/ancestries

[Faolyn]

You seem to be making several false assumptions here:

1.) Assuming that supernatural effects cannot remove a cap. In the contrary, this is what Girdles of Giant Strength have always done: allowed superhuman feats of strength that go beyond normal limits (ability "cap"). Getting blessed by a god of strength or eating the berries of a Power Tree, etc. falls under this category: exceeding the cap.

You shouldn't need to add magic items to break that arbitrarily-imposed glass ceiling.

2.) Assuming that only PCs exist or roll stats. "Second, all your examples are already going to be extremely rare because they will be limited to the PCs," you say, but this isn't true at all. NPCs play by the same rules as PCs in these sorts of games--it's not uncommon for one character to flip back and forth between PC and NPC depending on the situation, but the stats don't change. If Holga the Barbarian dies and the DM tells Holga's player to take over Bob the Lanternman for the rest of the session, Bob doesn't suddenly grow superhuman muscles... but at least the player is still participating in the roleplay and dialogue.

I'm pretty sure most GMs assign stats to NPCs. So yes, I'd say that 99.999% of the time, only PCs roll stats, and every single one of those female NPCs can have their Strength lowered by the GM's fiat.

And your statement doesn't make any sense. Why would the stats of an NPC change if the PC takes them over? The PC isn't rolling that character up. But a player who is rolling up a character should have the opportunity to roll an 18 Strength, regardless of the state of their fictional chromosomes.

3.) You're assuming that I'm not okay with sexual dimorphism when I already showed you by example that I am. In my example it was a Wisdom cap (in part because women tend to have better occipital lobes = better night vision = better Perception checks, but I'm not married to that choice), whereas you're conjecturing that I'd be averse to a Constitution or Dexterity cap--on what grounds? As long as it's realistic it's fine by me.

I think you're assuming bad faith where there is none.

Sure. Now go ask all those other men who think that women should have their Strength capped if they'd be OK with male PCs being limited in their Dex, Con, and Wis. Do you think they'd think it's fair and realistic and not sexist?

(Also, your Wisdom example is dumb. Men have better vision in some ways, women have better vision in others; the differences are minor enough that there's no way to reflect them accurately in D&D, or indeed, any other game)

I think I'm not assuming from bad faith, but extrapolating based on the sexism involved in this decision. Most men who think that female PCs should have their Strength capped are doing so for stupidly sexist reasons. Real humans don't have Strength scores; our physical capabilities is a mixture of many different types (various sites I've gone to have listed combinations of maximum strength, explosive strength, endurance strength, reactive strength, agile strength, and speed strength) and D&D Strength doesn't exactly correlate to any of them completely, and certainly not in a way that means one character is 5% better at everything than another character is.

 

[DarkCrisis]

You mean where they would torture and burn to death people for being accused of casting spells?

Would make playing a Wizard pretty interesting

 

[MGibster]

Sure. Imposing realistic physical limitations for one thing for realism is somehow fine, whereas other realistic physical limitations are handwaved away due to rule of cool is also somehow fine, and not at all hypocritical or sexist.

Not that I'm interested in caps on Strength for women charaters, but I do require some realistic physical limitations simply for versimilitude. Of course what people are willing to handwave for rule-of-cool varies from person to person. Me? I really, really hate the surfboard style swords that became popular a few years back. The Pathfinder iconic Barbarian has one of those and I can't tell you how much I hate, hate, hate it. I can accept a flying dragon that has no business being able to fly, but I just can't accept that stupid sword.

 

[Sacrosanct]

This is a hot button issue for me. I will never accept any game that is designed for females to be weaker. Designers design games based on their own predilections and prejudices. In fantasy there is no truth, only perspective and preference. And I will avoid, and judge, any game, designer, or DM who chooses to place those limitations in a game. That's a me thing. And that's okay.

Disclaimer: I largely agree with you, and having ability caps based on gender is just something I'd rather not see, for many reasons. So my response to the bolded part is more in general rather than meant to be an excuse to justify gender differences in game.

That said..

I disagree that in fantasy there is no truth. There are lots of truths that we all make assumptions about. Unless otherwise explicitly noted, we assume the fantasy world works the same as our own world. Gravity. Eating. Breathing. Physics. Etc. The key is the "explicitly noted" part. For things that differ from the real world's expectations, we generally have rules for that.

 

[Vaalingrade]

Not that I'm interested in caps on Strength for women charaters, but I do require some realistic physical limitations simply for versimilitude.

Verisimilitude is never worth it.

 

[FormerlyHemlock]

(A) You shouldn't need to add magic items to break that arbitrarily-imposed glass ceiling.

(B) Also, your Wisdom example is dumb. ...

I think I'm not assuming from bad faith, but extrapolating based on the sexism involved in this decision. Most men who think that female PCs should have their Strength capped are doing so for stupidly sexist reasons.

(A) You're the one who came up with those magic items--now you're complaining about your own examples?

(B) How rude.

 

[Incenjucar]

Would make playing a Wizard pretty interesting

And we'd only need to design a single level of wizard

Not that I'm interested in caps on Strength for women charaters, but I do require some realistic physical limitations simply for versimilitude. Of course what people are willing to handwave for rule-of-cool varies from person to person. Me? I really, really hate the surfboard style swords that became popular a few years back. The Pathfinder iconic Barbarian has one of those and I can't tell you how much I hate, hate, hate it. I can accept a flying dragon that has no business being able to fly, but I just can't accept that stupid sword.

View attachment 281812

Ironically, it turns out that giant swords actually seem to be pretty great in combat if you can manage the weight/strength issue. Super hard to dodge.

 

[Faolyn]

Not that I'm interested in caps on Strength for women charaters, but I do require some realistic physical limitations simply for versimilitude. Of course what people are willing to handwave for rule-of-cool varies from person to person. Me? I really, really hate the surfboard style swords that became popular a few years back. The Pathfinder iconic Barbarian has one of those and I can't tell you how much I hate, hate, hate it. I can accept a flying dragon that has no business being able to fly, but I just can't accept that stupid sword.

View attachment 281812

Hah!

My friend has just told me that, since they're nonbinary and therefore beyond gendered limitations, they get to have a Strength of 30.

 

[MGibster]

Verisimilitude is never worth it.

No? Looks like I'm going to have to reassess my entire life now.

 

[Faolyn]

(A) You're the one who came up with those magic items--now you're complaining about your own examples?

(B) How rude.

I did not come up with magic items. I came up with non-magic item based ways a "realistic" fantasy woman could logically have a high Strength.

You picked a bad example that doesn't work. Good night vision does not a higher Perception score make. Especially since Perception also includes all of the other senses in addition to different types of vision (noticing details, noticing and tracking moving objects, color sense).