D&D (2024) How did I miss this about the Half races/ancestries

[Minigiant]

It isn't about ignoring voices, and what we are debating is whether things like half elves and half orcs are a problem. Again, I am out in the world as well, and what I hear from people doesn't always reflect the complaints that gain traction online. Also on this particular point we've been discussion "Half" has been extremely contentious and many of the people in this thread and elsewhere who have voiced opposition to either changing the term half, taking half elves out as a race option, are people who would identify as having a mixed background (and many seem insulted that they would single out 'half' as a problem). So even if you are trying to listen to people, it isn't as cut and dry as "listen to everyone". You have to use some amount of discernment. But my point before was in response to someone saying now that every criticism was being heard, the game would finally stop having orcs that are stupid and lore that is stupid. I just don't that is the case. I think we aren't going to see lore get better, or the games get more playable, but quite the opposite if things are written to accord with twitter consensus and forum consensus. certainly listen to people, but I think do that in playtest and balance what you are hearing against a clear vision and design goals. When designers are worried about every single critique online, everything everyone says in an age where we all can publicize opinions with a click, it restrains creativity rather than increase it by causing people to constantly second guess their choices

The issue isn't that WOTC must listen to everyone.

The issue is WOTC is listening to no one and attempting to run away from it rather than handling it.

That's the issue. These things could have been handled long ago. WOTC is hoping they can just push it aside until everyone forgets.

 

[Micah Sweet]

Elder Scrolls orcs still value strength and combat, and in the past have raided other nations, but they are also master smiths and masons, have a code of honor, and believe wood is an inferior material to steel and stone and never use it for building.

So basically they stole a lot of dwarf and goliath tropes and added them to orcs, but it's a unique take...

That's a cool culture, and a good take. It's derivative, but at least from multiple sources.

So it looks like the best take on the modern orc is a super-strong human with a wider range of skin colors and sharper teeth whose culture is a combination of other strong and tough folks trying to live down their raider past. That could work. Best I've seen so far.

 

[Hussar]

/snip.

I'm just trying to present a counterpoint which often seems to get overlooked as we often try find the worst in things.

But that’s the point. It isn’t trying to find the worst. This is the interpretation that’s been repeated over and over and over again for decades.

The counter argument always seems to me to be ignoring context. Take everything in isolation and ignore any bigger picture.

That description from half orcs is virtually word for word pulled out of Jim Crow era literature. The whole “well orcs aren’t real” argument doesn’t carry any water when you start looking at the history of the game and genre.

Pull out that language and we’re golden. Pull out the references to only half races being subject to racism and we’re golden.

The game STILL has half orcs and half elves. They haven’t been removed. The only difference between a 2014 half elf and the new one is two skill proficiencies.

That’s it.

All these arguments over two skills.

 

[Guest 85555]

The issue isn't that WOTC must listen to everyone.

The issue is WOTC is listening to no one and attempting to run away from it rather than handling it.

I don't think this is true. I think for the past several editions they have been listening to people. And I think they have been making an effort (even if I find the effort not well executed) to listen to people they want to feel more welcome in the community. And you can see them making lots of changes towards that end. I would say the same thing with design. I do think presently they seem a little paralytic and I think that is to be expected when every step can land them a critique.

Just because they haven't responded to your criticisms of orcs, or my critiques of the settings, that doesn't mean they are listening to no one. I mean Van Richter's Guide to Ravenloft certainly wasn't the Ravenloft I was asking for (and I made my criticisms known in threads on it) but they clearly were listening to people because the changes they made reflected critiques I saw in the community.

 

[Micah Sweet]

But that’s the point. It isn’t trying to find the worst. This is the interpretation that’s been repeated over and over and over again for decades.

The counter argument always seems to me to be ignoring context. Take everything in isolation and ignore any bigger picture.

That description from half orcs is virtually word for word pulled out of Jim Crow era literature. The whole “well orcs aren’t real” argument doesn’t carry any water when you start looking at the history of the game and genre.

Pull out that language and we’re golden. Pull out the references to only half races being subject to racism and we’re golden.

The game STILL has half orcs and half elves. They haven’t been removed. The only difference between a 2014 half elf and the new one is two skill proficiencies.

That’s it.

All these arguments over two skills.

Its not just the mechanical representation; its how they decided to present it. You can look like whatever you want, but in the game only half (ironically) of your heritage matters.

 

[Sir Brennen]

So some x many pages back posters reiterated each other that the PHB was filled with racism. I took that claim at face value, I'm a DM - I don't read the PHB from cover to cover but I was curious at some point in the convo so I read the half-orc entry.
I liked it. I liked it a lot actually. And I only read it once, no audit was done by me. But I did post the question "where is the racism in the PHB?" No one replied. I found that strange since I can name 4 active posters in this thread who said there were racist overtones within the PHB.
And I'm not saying they're wrong, since I haven't read enough of the book to make that statement.

Every so often I need to point people to these couple of in-depth articles on racism in fantasy and what D&D inherited from that.

Read them, especially if you're a white cis male like me.

Orcs, Britons, and the Martial Race Myth, Part I: A Species Built for Racial Terror — James Mendez Hodes

This is the first installment of a two-article series about the racist origins, nature, and ramifications of orcs, a malevolent humanoid species from English author John Ronald Reuel Tolkien’s Middle-earth fantasy setting. I started researching this article with the hypothesis that a collection of n

jamesmendezhodes.com

Orcs, Britons, and the Martial Race Myth, Part II: They're Not Human — James Mendez Hodes

This is the complement to my previous article , “Orcs, Britons, and the Martial Race Myth, Part I: A Species Built for Racial Terror.” In the previous article, we learned how racist myths from the British academy and army fueled JRR Tolkien’s creation of orcs as an analogue for Asian people. Today

jamesmendezhodes.com

 

[Minigiant]

I don't think this is true. I think for the past several editions they have been listening to people. And I think they have been making an effort (even if I find the effort not well executed) to listen to people they want to feel more welcome in the community. And you can see them making lots of changes towards that end. I would say the same thing with design. I do think presently they seem a little paralytic and I think that is to be expected when every step can land them a critique.

Just because they haven't responded to your criticisms of orcs, or my critiques of the settings, that doesn't mean they are listening to no one. I mean Van Richter's Guide to Ravenloft certainly wasn't the Ravenloft I was asking for (and I made my criticisms known in threads on it) but they clearly were listening to people because the changes they made reflected critiques I saw in the community.

I'm only talking this instances.

Typically WOTC does nothing and talks to no one. Then runs headfirst into a scandal and then talks to the community

This time they tried to get ahead of the issue and talked either no one or the wrong people and chose a bad solution.

 

[Maxperson]

That D&D is an adventuring game in a Medieval- l-Renaissance default world with dungeons and dragons.

D&D doesn't provide a logical in-universe reason for how many nonPC races get to their MM representations. Especially in large numbers.

You're looking for waaaaaay too much out of the game. It doesn't give a terribly logical reason for dragons, either, which if the the first line is the entire context, would be the only allowed(if monsters require context to be there) monster at all.

The game is also not really a medieval/renaissance world. The time period is mixed to greatly to match anything here on earth and is its own unique thing.

Singling out orcs and half-races is an incredible bit of cherry picking if you're doing it based on that first line up there, as you're picking out a small handful of illogical races out of the hundreds the game provides.

Here is the context as given by the 5e PHB.

"THE DUNGEONS & DRAGONS ROLEPLAYING game is about storytelling in worlds of swords and sorcery. It shares elements with childhood games of make-believe. Like those games, D&D is driven by imagination. It's about picturing the towering castle beneath the stormy night sky and imagining how a fantasy adventurer might react to the challenges that scene presents."

Half-orcs, half-elves and the rest fit as well into the actual context as dragons, gelatinous cubes and all the others.

 

[Maxperson]

It's like the drow. Everyone knows the logistics and extreme CE culture of drow isn't sustainable. There has been thread on forums about it since the 90s.

But if you dare change it...

All of those threads ignore the fact that if you have a god sustaining it, it is sustainable. This is also a game. It's not supposed to be 100% real world logical. If you draw the line at drow, change them for your game. If I draw the line somewhere else, I won't and I will change something else.

 

[Maxperson]

Perhaps that aspect didn’t fit that take on orcs. That doesn’t make that aspect “controversial”, just at odds with the plans of those particular designers.

That kind of change happens frequently across products. Like the cannibalism of Athasian halflings.



Dude, simply typing “Eberron orcs” into your search engine of choice should enlighten you:

Orc

Orcs are large and powerful humanoids who can be found across Khorvaire, but particularly in the Demon Wastes, the Mror Holds, and the Shadow Marches.[6] While the people of the Five Nations sometimes depict them as savage brutes and ravaging barbarians, most orcs are in fact a deeply spiritual...

eberron.fandom.com

Amazingly, not dependent on controversial or objectionable stereotypes.

"While the people of the Five Nations sometimes depict them as savage brutes and ravaging barbarians, most orcs are in fact a deeply spiritual people with a variety of different cultures across the continent."

That sounds a lot like the Native American Nations. It's terribly hard to come up with a description that can't be applied to some real world people somewhere if you want to find one to apply it to.