D&D (2024) How did I miss this about the Half races/ancestries

[dave2008]

So it looks like the best take on the modern orc is a super-strong human with a wider range of skin colors and sharper teeth whose culture is a combination of other strong and tough folks trying to live down their raider past. That could work. Best I've seen so far.

Where did the idea that orcs are "super-strong" come from? It is not a Tolkien thing really (they are canon fodder really). It isn't evident in the 1e MM description either. I know it is a popular stance now, but where did the idea come from?

 

[Minigiant]

You're looking for waaaaaay too much out of the game. It doesn't give a terribly logical reason for dragons, either, which if the the first line is the entire context, would be the only allowed(if monsters require context to be there) monster at all.

The game is also not really a medieval/renaissance world. The time period is mixed to greatly to match anything here on earth and is its own unique thing.

Singling out orcs and half-races is an incredible bit of cherry picking if you're doing it based on that first line up there, as you're picking out a small handful of illogical races out of the hundreds the game provides.

Here is the context as given by the 5e PHB.

"THE DUNGEONS & DRAGONS ROLEPLAYING game is about storytelling in worlds of swords and sorcery. It shares elements with childhood games of make-believe. Like those games, D&D is driven by imagination. It's about picturing the towering castle beneath the stormy night sky and imagining how a fantasy adventurer might react to the challenges that scene presents."

Half-orcs, half-elves and the rest fit as well into the actual context as dragons, gelatinous cubes and all the others.

The game doesn't explain how the orc raiders don't all starve.

 

[Justice and Rule]

"While the people of the Five Nations sometimes depict them as savage brutes and ravaging barbarians, most orcs are in fact a deeply spiritual people with a variety of different cultures across the continent."

That sounds a lot like the Native American Nations. It's terribly hard to come up with a description that can't be applied to some real world people somewhere if you want to find one to apply it to.

Yes, but we don't just look at one thing, but the whole and the context. It's never been about one thing with Orcs, but a whole bunch.

Where did the idea that orcs are "super-strong" come from? It is not a Tolkien thing really (they are canon fodder really). It isn't evident in the 1e MM description either. I know it is a popular stance now, but where did the idea come from?

Went along with being super-tough, really.

 

[dave2008]

Went along with being super-tough, really.

That is not original to Tolkien or D&D either (just re-read the 1e MM to make sure), so the same question applies: where did it come from?

 

[Micah Sweet]

Where did the idea that orcs are "super-strong" come from? It is not a Tolkien thing really (they are canon fodder really). It isn't evident in the 1e MM description either. I know it is a popular stance now, but where did the idea come from?

A mechanical need to differentiate orcs from other playable races, I'd wager, in a way that wasn't offensive.

 

[AnotherGuy]

But that’s the point. It isn’t trying to find the worst. This is the interpretation that’s been repeated over and over and over again for decades.

The counter argument always seems to me to be ignoring context. Take everything in isolation and ignore any bigger picture.

That description from half orcs is virtually word for word pulled out of Jim Crow era literature. The whole “well orcs aren’t real” argument doesn’t carry any water when you start looking at the history of the game and genre.

Pull out that language and we’re golden. Pull out the references to only half races being subject to racism and we’re golden.

The game STILL has half orcs and half elves. They haven’t been removed. The only difference between a 2014 half elf and the new one is two skill proficiencies.

That’s it.

All these arguments over two skills.

I don't think that's a fair assessment.
I attempted to look at the half orc entry as a whole - so I read the alignment entry, the menacing feature, the ability mod, the connection/struggle with their creator, the blurb and put together something all encompassing which tied up with the line you pulled. I didn't ignore it and I'm certainly not telling you (general you) to ignore it. I tried to give it depth.
I like building on lore. I try weave things to make every edition's lore work.
Even if it was just rumor or speculation.

The creativity is in connecting the discrepancies or oddities. I don't know what to tell you - I like the half orc entry. I think setting books is where creativity can flourish in having orcs of various levels of tech, magical or spiritual know-how.
Anyways.

 

[Justice and Rule]

That is not original to Tolkien or D&D either (just re-read the 1e MM to make sure), so the same question applies: where did it come from?

Over time, there was a need to create more differentiation. Most non-human races have two stat increases and a stat decrease. So with Orcs, they felt being strong went with being tough. Given the depiction of Orcs and the previous intelligence decrease, little else probably felt like it fit.

 

[dave2008]

A mechanical need to differentiate orcs from other playable races, I'd wager, in a way that wasn't offensive.

I can see that, but when did that happen? 3e?

 

[dave2008]

Over time, there was a need to create more differentiation. Most non-human races have two stat increases and a stat decrease. So with Orcs, they felt being strong went with being tough. Given the depiction of Orcs and the previous intelligence decrease, little else probably felt like it fit.

I can see that, but when did that happen? 3e?

 

[AnotherGuy]

Every so often I need to point people to these couple of in-depth articles on racism in fantasy and what D&D inherited from that.

Orcs, Britons, and the Martial Race Myth, Part II: They're Not Human — James Mendez Hodes

This is the complement to my previous article , “Orcs, Britons, and the Martial Race Myth, Part I: A Species Built for Racial Terror.” In the previous article, we learned how racist myths from the British academy and army fueled JRR Tolkien’s creation of orcs as an analogue for Asian people. Today

jamesmendezhodes.com

This was a rather disappointing read and I'm referring to the 2nd link as the first one referred to Tolkien (so I ignored it) and only the second link actually dealt with 5e.

I'm also wondering how many fantasy books the author imagines Jordan Peterson has written.

I love that there is a fantasy race, the elves, that exudes a sense of Presence (Vampire ability). As for them being depicted as slender and graceful. Well I look forward to the author's award winning setting, for sure, in which his chosen species is hairy, a fine level of rotund with an unearthly clumsiness but exudes the same level of beauty as the D&D elf. Can't wait for that artwork.

I have found many of us enjoy D&D for a variety of reasons. Some of us spend a weekend writing a verbose article complaining about every little description, others want to game with friends eat drink and be merry. I know which kind am I.