D&D (2024) How did I miss this about the Half races/ancestries

[Hussar]

Until these happen -if ever-, I have no reason to be happy about any of this. Even if we get these rules, this is all coming out of the erasure of half-elves and half-orcs. Having an explicit option that doesn't reek of blood purity language would be an improvement, but still we are dealing with the de-normalization and marginalization of mixed characters. You are not part of any collective anymore, you are weird one-off occurrence instead. Or do you seriously think we will start getting tons of mixed NPCs based on what will be a glorified sidebar with no actual lore?

Huh?

The description of mixed characters is marginalized RIGHT NOW. It specifically calls it out that all mixed characters are marginalized. Not only that, but none of the mixed characters have their own lands, have their own culture and are always subjected to othering and marginalization by the pure races. There never was a "collective" of half races. You were always a weird one off. That's exactly what the 2014 PHB says.

A. All half races are relegated to the "non-core" uncommon races.
B. All half races are forced to be subject to racism and bigotry and are never accepted.
C. The language around all the half races are pretty clear that they are one offs.

"Half-elves have no lands of their own... half-elves are sometimes numerous enough to form small communities of their own... In most parts of theworld half-elves are uncommon enough that one might live for years without meeting another." (2014 PHB page 39)

 

[Maxperson]

A race that has a per capita birth rate of 0.5 per year and grows to maturity in only 3 years, has overwhelming racial solidarity (lacks intraracial violent or fraudulent motives), and is otherwise similar to humans, will drive humans, elves, etc. to extinction in short order. But most people would consider that "lore", not mechanics, unless you couple it with level limits.

That's not lore.

 

[Maxperson]

Power is power.

The armies of Lord Green is power more powerful that the combined forces of the Red Lion tribe.

Power is not lore. You've just given Lord Green more mechanical benefit. Mechanics are how armies are more powerful.

The default lore of the MM orcs is that although strong, the might of orcs lacks the mentality or phsycallity to conquer nations.

The latter is wrong, though. There's nothing in the mechanics that prevents the bolded.

But this is beyond the point. The point is that the 2014 orcs were described as humaniod shaped but they don't think like humaniods who have free will and full sapience. Being an orc and being like people required playing as a half orc.

That wasn't actually true in 2014 and isn't true now. The MM says any creature can be of any alignment. The DM can do what he wants on that front.

This is why gnolls were turned into fiends. Gnolls in 5e are not people.

See above. I can make a thousand LG 5e gnolls tomorrow and they would be RAW gnolls.

 

[Chaosmancer]

AI isn't truly the "I" yet. It's also a colossal mistake. One has already taken steps(and was rebuffed) to wipe out humanity.

The creation of Bitcoin was also a colossal mistake. That doesn't mean considering a fully digital currency instead physical money is a mistake. And, again, you are saying we shouldn't even consider anything about AI's because we haven't successfully made one yet. But that is the stupidest time to start thinking about them. It's like saying you aren't going to consider the implications of space stations until you successfully build one, while watching people consistently trying to build them.

If it exists only in your imagination, yes. You don't know beyond your wild guess if anything is even out there.

So we shouldn't think about space elevators? We shouldn't consider Cold Nuclear Fusion? Solar Engines that push the solar system? Just because it only exists currently as an idea in our minds (which, by the way, it doesn't just exist there, it exists in the math and probability) does not mean something is not worthy of discussion and consideration. We currently use those things that do not exist as markers for where we should move forward, and where we should avoid. Considering how to deal with the inevitable contact between us and another sapient species is not a waste of time.

So show me a real life space alien.

Okay, here you go. Real pictures of fossils of alien life from Mars. What do I win?

Yes.

No.

And may very well be impossible for them to reach us as well, if they even exist.

It may be impossible for them to reach us... but we certainly have theorized a few hundred different ways to get past that limitation for ourselves. They are all difficult, not possible now per se, but mostly they just take time and dedication to the project. Not actually impossible, merely infeasible

What's more, why are you trying to force them to be people. They will have alien thought processes and morals. You could be offending them greatly by forcing them into the people category. How about you let THEM decide if they want to be people..........................just as soon as you can produce one to ask.

You know, this reminds me of a thing about transexual individuals. If you misgender them by accident, they will tell you, and you can correct it. If considering alien life "people" which we consider to be very good as a designation offends them, then we will correct ourselves. Of course, it is mind-boggling how you want to switch from "prove alien life could possibly exist" to "what if considering them people and peers/equals offends them! Best to not think of them as people, just in case!"

 

[Yaarel]

Until these happen -if ever-, I have no reason to be happy about any of this. Even if we get these rules, this is all coming out of the erasure of half-elves and half-orcs. Having an explicit option that doesn't reek of blood purity language would be an improvement, but still we are dealing with the de-normalization and marginalization of mixed characters.

I see the playtest normalizing mixed-parentage characters. The "Half-Elf" and the "Half-Orc" are no longer weird. Now mixing is something that all sapient species can and do.

In the earlier playtest, there seems an over-reliance on customizing appearance and flavor, because there are concerns about mechanical balance if unintended "combos" become possible.

But if I recall correctly, the designers recognize there also needs to be a mechanical way to represent a character of mixed parentage.



For me the obvious solution is to handle traits in the same way that 5e handles feats.

Say every official Species has three choices from a list of half-feats. (Something like Flight might cost all three half-feat choices.) These are called "Special" Feats (= Species).

For example, below is moreorless the UA playtest Elf, but organizing into three Special Feats to choose from, namely Nature Spirit, Fey Ancestry, and Twilighter.



ELF TRAITS
Creature Type: Fey or an other Creature Type of your choice
Size: Medium (5-6 feet tall)
Speed: 30 feet
Lifespan. You reach adulthood about age 20, like Humans do, but afterward remain eternally youthful. Due to other causes of death, Elves expect to live 750 years on average.

Choose three from the following Elven Special Feats.

NATURE SPIRIT
Choose two cantrips from any spell lists. You can also treat the following effects as if cantrips when you choose:
• your speed improves to 35 feet
• you can breathe water as well as air
• you can after each long rest swap a cantrip with an other one of your choice
• if you have Darkvision it improves to 120 feet
The two chosen cantrips are innate, thus you cast them without spell components. Intelligence, Wisdom, or Charisma is your spellcasting ability for them.

FEY ANCESTRY
Charm Resistance. You have advantage on saving throws you make to avoid or end the Charmed Condition on yourself.
Innate Caster. From any spell list, choose a slot 1 spell when you reach level 3, and a slot 2 spell when level 5. You gain the ability to cast each of these two spells once after a long rest. You know these spells and can also cast them using any Spell Slots you have. The spells are innate, thus you can cast them without spell components. Intelligence, Wisdom, or Charisma is your spellcasting ability for them.

TWILIGHTER
Trance. You dont need to sleep, and magic cant put to you sleep. You can finish a Long Rest in 4 hours if you spend those hours in a trancelike meditation during which you retain consciousness.
Darkvision. You have Darkvision with a range of 60 feet.
Keen Senses. You have Proficiency in the Perception Skill.



The three above Feats are flexible enough to represent almost every "elf subrace" in the history of D&D. There can also be other Elf Special Feats to choose from, such as Flight, or Magic Resistance, or whatever. More powerful Special Feats can become available at higher levels, such as becoming an Archfey. Meanwhile, the Species chapter has a section that explains what to do when choosing Special Feats for a character from mixed parentage.

 

[MoonSong]

The description of mixed characters is marginalized RIGHT NOW. It specifically calls it out that all mixed characters are marginalized. Not only that, but none of the mixed characters have their own lands, have their own culture and are always subjected to othering and marginalization by the pure races. There never was a "collective" of half races. You were always a weird one off. That's exactly what the 2014 PHB says.

I used to think I'm no longer welcome with the new changes, now I know I was never welcome to begin with... Thanks for setting the record straight I guess...

A. All half races are relegated to the "non-core" uncommon races.
B. All half races are forced to be subject to racism and bigotry and are never accepted.
C. The language around all the half races are pretty clear that they are one offs.

"Half-elves have no lands of their own... half-elves are sometimes numerous enough to form small communities of their own... In most parts of theworld half-elves are uncommon enough that one might live for years without meeting another." (2014 PHB page 39)

More seriously, at least it is some representation. Again I wasn't talking about having a lot right now, just that this change will ensure that we get nothing anymore. Imagine going from some representation to nothing. And again, this will ensure that all mixed characters are truly one offs. No more small communities in the Realms and the Khorovar lands in Eberron, now just nothing. And having it being an option you have to puzzle from either arcane rules or the absolute hateful nothing that is right now, ensures that the next half elf I get to play is truly the last one. Non standard options all turn into one-offs that are only seen once under the right DM and then never again. As opposed to a full-fledged standard option in the core book.

 

[Yaarel]

You are not part of any collective anymore, you are weird one-off occurrence instead. Or do you seriously think we will start getting tons of mixed NPCs based on what will be a glorified sidebar with no actual lore?

The lore for mixed-species characters depends on the setting. Even in the same world setting, like Forgotten Realms, the lore for a Human-Elf parentage depends on whether one is in Udadrow Menzoberranzan, Waterdeep, Feywild, or wherever. I dont think the Players Handbook can or should bake-in a specific setting assumption.

 

[Maxperson]

The creation of Bitcoin was also a colossal mistake. That doesn't mean considering a fully digital currency instead physical money is a mistake. And, again, you are saying we shouldn't even consider anything about AI's because we haven't successfully made one yet. But that is the stupidest time to start thinking about them. It's like saying you aren't going to consider the implications of space stations until you successfully build one, while watching people consistently trying to build them.

Nah. We shouldn't even attempt to make one. We can't make a simple video game or OS without 10 bazillion holes and bugs. It's inevitable that an AI will get away from us at some point and that will be a disaster.

So we shouldn't think about space elevators? We shouldn't consider Cold Nuclear Fusion? Solar Engines that push the solar system?

Wow. Way to add a bunch of stuff to my argument that wasn't anywhere near what I said. How about if I say AI, you limit your responses to AI or ask me if I mean it to apply to more than AI?

Just because it only exists currently as an idea in our minds (which, by the way, it doesn't just exist there, it exists in the math and probability)

But may not in reality! The probability, according to the science and math, is that aliens both are most probably out there AND most probably not out there, depending on the numbers being looked at and which side scientists fall on that day. I read about these things a lot.

Considering how to deal with the inevitable contact between us and another sapient species is not a waste of time.

Dude. Even if they are out there contact is not inevitable.

Okay, here you go. Real pictures of fossils of alien life from Mars. What do I win?

View attachment 282842

You win a conspiracy theory cupie doll! As yet there is no evidence Mars ever had life.

It may be impossible for them to reach us... but we certainly have theorized a few hundred different ways to get past that limitation for ourselves. They are all difficult, not possible now per se, but mostly they just take time and dedication to the project. Not actually impossible, merely infeasible

They are still statistically impossible or just theories that we cannot fully test. Just because the number is not actually 0, does not mean that it isn't statistically impossible. Perhaps in the future things will be moved to merely infeasible, but they aren't there yet.

If considering alien life "people" which we consider to be very good as a designation offends them, then we will correct ourselves.

Assuming any of us are left to correct it. They will have completely alien minds and morals. They won't be us.

Of course, it is mind-boggling how you want to switch from "prove alien life could possibly exist" to "what if considering them people and peers/equals offends them! Best to not think of them as people, just in case!"

It's not a switch. It's an additional argument that also stands opposite to your position.

 

[Chaosmancer]

I did't say there isn't a difference. I just said both can lead to bad things. I would argue the absence of this paradigm can lead to much less restraint and to more atrocities (not in all cases but overall). However I do understand that is a hefty debate and one where there are plenty of good points to be made against my position (I've been on both sides of the debate one rate years and ultimately come down on the one I expressed, but I do think it is one where reasonable arguments can be made for both positions).

Both sides of anything can lead to bad things. That's why you try and pick the best path you can, not a perfect path.

Sure and that is a deep philosophical and spiritual question which we probably can't get too far into on this forum. But I think it is easy to draw up a caricature or a simplification of both positions here.

But it is the entire crux of your argument against my point. Your entire point is that if we do not consider the fact of "is human" to be essential and immutably part of being "a person" that we invite disaster. But my point is that "a person" certainly does include all humans, but it isn't limited to only humans. That doesn't remove the designation from humans, simply expands it. But by claiming that humans are special in a way that only humans are, we invite problems that we do not need to have.

Is it though? No one today is really called a barbarian in the sense of the class (well my wife calls me one, but that is because she thinks I open doors too loudly). And when people do use this term it doesn't describe a way of life, but more typically, acts of extreme cruelty during war (i.e. the bombing of civilian targets was barbaric). And people use it to describe their enemies all the time, but even then that isn't the Conan sense of the term. In Conan being a barbarian is a good thing.

No it isn't. Conan being a Barbarian falls into the issue of the Fremen Mirage. He isn't decadant like the city-folk, so he is pure and martial and manly. But he is refered to as a "barbarian" because he is not part of the society around him, he is seperate from it. Only good in that society itself is presented as soft and corrupt and unworthy.

And changing the name of the Barbarian class has come up many times, because there is a reason people don't use this term to describe a way of life anymore outside of games like DnD. It is because calling the ways of life it represents "barbaric" is offensive and misrepresents them.

No, because the D&D barbarian is largely influenced by movies. But people also oversell Conan's intellect in the Howard stories. He was smart and cunning, but he also was a man of very simple tastes and certainly not a scholar. He just didn't sound like Arnold. Personally though I love Arnold depiction of Conan. I think it's great

Right, Fremen Mirage.

Again though this is just a slow whittling away of the things that make the game work. The barbarian class is a lot of fun. People love the rage ability. People adore the concept. It is packed with flavor. Albeit its simplistic, it doesn't tell you anything about history but it works wonderfully in a fantasy or sword and sorcery RPG

You can keep the mechanics, you can keep a great deal of the flavor, but you don't have to keep the name. Because the name, and the associated fluff, perpetuate a false narrative.

I actually know this for a fact, because about a year or so ago on this very forum, I talked about an excellent barbarian I made who was a Knight. I was then, repeatedly, informed that I had made the character wrong, because knights can't be barbarians. You can't be a barbarian and have refined tastes, or like reading, or enjoy galas and balls. They were incensed at the very concept, and not just a single poster, there were a few of them. And I told them their opinions didn't matter to me, but it shows the problem. Barbarian carries with it FAR too many culture assumptions and baggage. It isn't something in desperate need of fixing, but it is something that I wouldn't mind getting fixed.

And is it, to assuage your worries, ever possible to ever tell a story of a tribal person of great strength, great rage, and great martial ability? Of course it is, but saying that they are a barbarian who can't appreciate culture is just a flat stereotype that ignores the breadth of what RAGE can mean. After all, the quintessential rage is Cuchulain, a noble man.

 

[MoonSong]

I see the playtest normalizing mixed-parentage characters. The "Half-Elf" and the "Half-Orc" are no longer weird. Now mixing is something that all sapient species can and do.

In the earlier playtest, there seems an over-reliance on customizing appearance and flavor, because there are concerns about mechanical balance if unintended "combos" become possible.

But if I recall correctly, the designers recognize there also needs to be a mechanical way to represent a character of mixed parentage.



For me the obvious solution is to handle traits in the same way that 5e handles feats.

Say every official Species has three half-feats to choose from. (Something like Flight might cost all three half-feat choices.) These are called "Special" Feats (= Species).

For example, below is moreorless the UA playtest Elf, but organizing into three Special Feats to choose from, namely Nature Spirit, Fey Ancestry, and Twilighter.



ELF TRAITS
Creature Type: Fey or an other Creature Type of your choice
Size: Medium (5-6 feet tall)
Speed: 30 feet
Lifespan. You reach adulthood about age 20, like Humans do, but afterward remain eternally youthful. Due to other causes of death, Elves expect to live 750 years on average.

Choose three from the following Elven Special Feats.

NATURE SPIRIT
Choose two cantrips from any spell lists. You can also treat the following effects as if cantrips when you choose:
• your speed improves to 35 feet
• you can breathe water as well as air
• you can after each long rest swap a cantrip with an other one of your choice
• if you have Darkvision it improves to 120 feet
The two chosen cantrips are innate, thus you cast them without spell components. Intelligence, Wisdom, or Charisma is your spellcasting ability for them.

FEY ANCESTRY
Charm Resistance. You have advantage on saving throws you make to avoid or end the Charmed Condition on yourself.
Innate Caster. From any spell list, choose a slot 1 spell when you reach level 3, and a slot 2 spell when level 5. You gain the ability to cast each of these two spells once after a long rest. You know these spells and can also cast them using any Spell Slots you have. The spells are innate, thus you can cast them without spell components. Intelligence, Wisdom, or Charisma is your spellcasting ability for them.

TWILIGHTER
Trance. You dont need to sleep, and magic cant put to you sleep. You can finish a Long Rest in 4 hours if you spend those hours in a trancelike meditation during which you retain consciousness.
Darkvision. You have Darkvision with a range of 60 feet.
Keen Senses. You have Proficiency in the Perception Skill.



The three above Feats are flexible enough to represent almost every "elf subrace" in the history of D&D. There can also be other Elf Special Feats to choose from, such as Flight, or Magic Resistance, or whatever. More powerful Special Feats can become available at higher levels, such as becoming an Archfey. Meanwhile, the Species chapter has a section that explains what to do when choosing Special Feats for a character from mixed parentage.

Like I said, until I see something in actual playtest I remain unconvinced. And I'm not holding my breath. I mean I've got nothing against mixing halflings with gnomes and elves with orcs, but the whole situation leaves a sour taste. Because it comes at the expense of having default options. Default options are accessible, are visible, and are more likely to be accepted/respected on the table.

But overall, I don't think any of you can change my mind, because I'm aware that my reaction is emotional, so no amount of reasoning will change how I feel. And the whole language used by the designers felt condescending, othering and overall hurtful. And it brings me back to the feeling of "why do I have to renounce to something I like, and that I identify with so others can be happy?, more so as they somehow celebrate how much this means how good and supportive they are of me while being entirely at the expense of me?"