D&D (2024) How did I miss this about the Half races/ancestries

[Chaosmancer]

Ok, I had unplugged from the discussion, but this is a very different matter. We can't rule out other intelligent species out there in the universe, but we can't guarantee they existing, and if they exist, we cannot really ever hope to ever meaningfully interact with them. The universe is truly gigantic with colossal distances between stars. We can only ever know a fraction of space and everything else outside of it is unknowable. Even then, we are limited to only know as much information as can be carried out by light and other electromagnetic waves. To actually land somewhere, we are limited to the places that can be visited in a human lifetime -a generation ship would be a pipe dream too-. Yes, theoretically something like warp is possible, but in practice you need the ability to harness a black hole on command and everything between the starting and ending point is torn to shreds in the process. And no, there isn't many outs that a civilization out there could take short of actual magic.

But even if there is a way to actually travel the cosmos within a human lifetime, there is no guarantee we will find life out there. Life as we know it is fragile, and theoretical more exotic life isn't a given either. Even if we find it, intelligence isn't a given either. Evolution is random and without a theleological purpose. Out of the millions -if not billions or trillions- of species that have inhabited earth, how many times has intelligence evolved? Only a handful, and if we are talking about human-like intelligence, only once in us and our extinct sibling species that we either outcompeted, killed or loved to death.

So TLDR: Intelligent life is extremely unlikely out there. If it is out there, it is too far away to even know about it, let alone have any kind of meaningful interaction with. And let's rule out having actual physical contact of any kind short of actual magic.

Right, but, you are kind of missing a big point here. Life with human level intelligence did evolve. This means the chance is above zero. So, let's say it is truly an astronomical number, and say the chances are 1 in a trillion, which is something that likely has never happened on Earth (you start getting into theoritical by this point in stats)

Our Local Group, which is a tiny tiny section of the known universe, is something that will never be out of reach, and it is likely the limit of humanities growth. The Local group has more than 1.24 Trillion STARS. Not planets, stars. And it has more, because those are just the three largest galaxies (The Milky Way, Andromeda, and Triangulu,) there are another 50 or so smaller galaxies as well. If we assume at least 6 planets for every star.... then even at 1 in a trillion chances, just in the three largest galaxies, we would expect to see six different places where human level intelligence grows and flourishes.

And that is assuming we are rare. We might not be. It might be that every planet that supports diverse life gives rise to human-like intelligence, after all, before we out-competed them, we had a lot of cousins and the like as a species that were equally intelligent and sapient. So it could be that most habitable planets will eventually give rise to alien life.

And yes, it could be that technology to move fast enough to meaningfully interact with this life is not something we are likely to develop... but then again, being fast enough doesn't matter if you are spreading enough. If we send out colony ships for example, we might land and find aliens. And THOSE humans will have meaningful interactions with THOSE aliens. And considering the human need to expand, to explore, to go where we have never gone before.... that becomes very very likely. Even if only six sapient species ever exist, if everyone is trying to expand within the same limited space, we will one day find each other. It becomes... inevitable

 

[Chaosmancer]

It doesn't, but whatever you present in the official material is what a lot of folks, including nearly all new players, are going to assume is the way the game is played, and that limits the worlds they may create, and the adventures they engage in, to a circle far smaller than other forms of media allow.

How is this different from what Gygax did originally? He presented things in official materials, which people assumed was the way the game was played. Wouldn't that have limited the worlds they created, the adventures they engaged in and in a far smaller circle than other forms of media?

What we are now doing is changing things, which I know you explicitly state you don't like, but we are trying to take that original small circle, and shift it. So... how is this bad? How are the limits and assumptions of the old ways superior to the limits and assumptions now, especially since many of those limits and assumptions can be boiled down to "let's be less offensive and more creatively complex than before"

After all, if orcs are given a complex society with complex motivations... isn't that MORE than "are evil raider, will kill on sight, murder all of them"?

 

[MoonSong]

Right, but, you are kind of missing a big point here. Life with human level intelligence did evolve. This means the chance is above zero. So, let's say it is truly an astronomical number, and say the chances are 1 in a trillion, which is something that likely has never happened on Earth (you start getting into theoritical by this point in stats)

Our Local Group, which is a tiny tiny section of the known universe, is something that will never be out of reach, and it is likely the limit of humanities growth. The Local group has more than 1.24 Trillion STARS. Not planets, stars. And it has more, because those are just the three largest galaxies (The Milky Way, Andromeda, and Triangulu,) there are another 50 or so smaller galaxies as well. If we assume at least 6 planets for every star.... then even at 1 in a trillion chances, just in the three largest galaxies, we would expect to see six different places where human level intelligence grows and flourishes.

And that is assuming we are rare. We might not be. It might be that every planet that supports diverse life gives rise to human-like intelligence, after all, before we out-competed them, we had a lot of cousins and the like as a species that were equally intelligent and sapient. So it could be that most habitable planets will eventually give rise to alien life.

And yes, it could be that technology to move fast enough to meaningfully interact with this life is not something we are likely to develop... but then again, being fast enough doesn't matter if you are spreading enough. If we send out colony ships for example, we might land and find aliens. And THOSE humans will have meaningful interactions with THOSE aliens. And considering the human need to expand, to explore, to go where we have never gone before.... that becomes very very likely. Even if only six sapient species ever exist, if everyone is trying to expand within the same limited space, we will one day find each other. It becomes... inevitable

You are waay more optimist than I. I don't ever see colony ships as something viable. From my perspective our limits are the hundred-plus stars within 50 lightyears from the sun. As I mentioned, what can be reached within a human lifetime with sublight speeds.

And I'm more of the opinion that one or more factors in the Drake equation are zeroes, and we are the rounding error.

 

[Vaalingrade]

Considering Earth had a bunch of different human species, plus pigs, elephants, dolphins and cats, I'm pretty sure intelligent life isn't all that rare in places where complex organisms happen.

Honestly, we're already in a multi-intelligent species RPG world, just one where the language system somehow sucks even more than the D&D one.

The real problems we'll have is: 1) surviving as a technological society the next 50 years and 2) recognizing the other species as intelligent before accidentallying ourselves into a galactic war we can't win.

 

[Chaosmancer]

So some x many pages back posters reiterated each other that the PHB was filled with racism. I took that claim at face value, I'm a DM - I don't read the PHB from cover to cover but I was curious at some point in the convo so I read the half-orc entry.
I liked it. I liked it a lot actually. And I only read it once, no audit was done by me. But I did post the question "where is the racism in the PHB?" No one replied. I found that strange since I can name 4 active posters in this thread who said there were racist overtones within the PHB.
And I'm not saying they're wrong, since I haven't read enough of the book to make that statement.

At least if we consider that the etymological root of the word barbarian as being racist then I can understand the claim made about the PHB by these posters.

I didn't reply because it has been said so many times, and it is so obvious, that the question almost seems pointless to ask. It has been answered. Repeatedly. Not in this thread, though Hussar pointed out one of the examples already.

I think also, you attribute a lot of safeguarding of the lore to this "mark of Gruumsh" but... man DnD lore does not really make that a good case for you. Gruumsh has a temper to be sure, but we also know that DnD lore has him being cheated out of a home for his children because they were "too ugly" for the elves to stand. And if the source of your rage and "evil" was "the immortal pretty good at everything people were racist at my children for being too ugly" then... you aren't exactly being painted as an unsympathetic villain.

 

[Micah Sweet]

How is this different from what Gygax did originally? He presented things in official materials, which people assumed was the way the game was played. Wouldn't that have limited the worlds they created, the adventures they engaged in and in a far smaller circle than other forms of media?

What we are now doing is changing things, which I know you explicitly state you don't like, but we are trying to take that original small circle, and shift it. So... how is this bad? How are the limits and assumptions of the old ways superior to the limits and assumptions now, especially since many of those limits and assumptions can be boiled down to "let's be less offensive and more creatively complex than before"

After all, if orcs are given a complex society with complex motivations... isn't that MORE than "are evil raider, will kill on sight, murder all of them"?

Creative complexity requires more page count. Something somewhere has to give. I wonder where it will be?

 

[FormerlyHemlock]

That's not lore.

Whatever it is, it is the kind of data about a race which WotC doesn't typically supply. What's the Aarakocra birth rate? [Giant shrug from WotC]

Nowadays they don't even supply lifespan, let alone height and weight distributions. Hence why I no longer buy WotC 5E products, although the movie was quite good.

 

[Maxperson]

Whatever it is, it is the kind of data about a race which WotC doesn't typically supply. What's the Aarakocra birth rate? [Giant shrug from WotC]

That is true They don't give that information. However, it gets a giant shrug from me as well. Why do we need to know the birthrate in order to put an aarakocra village on the side of a mountain? If they are going to give me more lore/information, I'd prefer it to be useful.

Nowadays they don't even supply lifespan, let alone height and weight distributions. Hence why I no longer buy WotC 5E products, although the movie was quite good.

Yeah. I'm not happy that they got rid of that information. Those, unlike birth rates, were useful.

 

[AnotherGuy]

I didn't reply because it has been said so many times, and it is so obvious, that the question almost seems pointless to ask. It has been answered. Repeatedly. Not in this thread, though Hussar pointed out one of the examples already.

I think also, you attribute a lot of safeguarding of the lore to this "mark of Gruumsh" but... man DnD lore does not really make that a good case for you. Gruumsh has a temper to be sure, but we also know that DnD lore has him being cheated out of a home for his children because they were "too ugly" for the elves to stand. And if the source of your rage and "evil" was "the immortal pretty good at everything people were racist at my children for being too ugly" then... you aren't exactly being painted as an unsympathetic villain.

But that backstory is cool to have it realized within a long campaign if you make it a focus, perhaps seeping through ever so slightly at first and then bubbling out at the end. There are so many avenues to take with such a story.

The apology of Corellon, the reforging of the orcs, cursing the elven bloodline to ugliness, the abandonment of the Corellon by the elves, judgement of Corellon by his peers, a new homeworld for the orcs, destruction of the elven homeworld, finding the true individual responsible behind their uĝliness, loss of elven "immortality"...etc

I see possibilities for great stories that would otherwise not likely spring into mind if both races were "pretty"

 

[Bagpuss]

Off the top of my head. Racist overtone in the phb.

Only mixed races are called out as being subject to fetishization and bigotry.

I refer you to my earlier post, this is a feature not a bug.

As for the only race called out as being subject to fetishization and bigotry, are you sure you've read the PHB.

Dwarves talking about halflings "How can you take them seriously?"
Dwarves on Humans "You have to admire that kind of dedication..."
Dwarves on elves "It's not wise to depend on the elves."

Elves on dwarves "Dwarves are dull, clumsy oafs."
Elves on humans "If only they could slow down and learn some refinement."

Humans on Dwarves "Their greed is their downfall..."
Humans on elves "...if an elf can get past that damned racial pride"
Humans on halflings "If halflings had a shred of ambition, they might amount to something."

Seems plenty to go round.

Hrm, yeah that’s nice. Being a half orc makes you smarter and more disciplined because heaven knows those “savages” are too stupid and undisciplined.

Well in 3rd Ed, a half-orc didn't have the wisdom penalty full orcs did so half-orcs were generally more disciplined.

In 5th Ed Orcs have INT 7, the wisdom penalty is gone. But Half-Orcs don't get a stat penalty to intelligence anymore, so half-orcs are more intelligent.

They aren't stupid and undisciplined because they are savages, they are savages because they are stupid and undisciplined, plus by their nature they are brutal and violent.

In a fantasy setting when you are dealing with non-human species, there can generally be different levels of intelligence, strength and the like, between the species, that is an actual observable fact in the game world.

I think part of the problem is 5th Ed began the caving in to the idea that all these species needed to be mechanically so similar so everyone could play what they wanted without feeling disadvantaged. First removing negative modifiers originally and then racial modifiers altogether.

So now they all have to think and act the same as well, have access to the full range of human potential and motivations.

Which is daft because these fantasy races were created as allegories for particular aspects of humanity. Be it our potential for brutalism and violence (Orcs), the sense of home and comfort (hobbits), etc. You don't have homebody orcs because that isn't what they represent, you don't have savage halflings because again that isn't what they represent in the fiction.

Now of course it can be fun to subvert those tropes (like savage halflings in Dark Sun), but again the different species are still there only to be a reflection of part of humanity not the whole, so it doesn't make sense for their cultures to represent everything that is possible.

If you want to RP a character representing the full range of human possibility you play a human, if you want to just play something brutal and violent, you can be a human or half-orc. If you want refinement and sophistication be and elf or a human, but not an orc unless you realise you are doing to subvert a trope. But in order to subvert that trope it needs to exist so it can't be normal for all orcs to fill the full range of human personalities.