D&D (2024) How did I miss this about the Half races/ancestries

[Minigiant]

What exactly is the context of the game? And how do those things not fit it?

That D&D is an adventuring game in a Medieval- l-Renaissance default world with dungeons and dragons.

D&D doesn't provide a logical in-universe reason for how many nonPC races get to their MM representations. Especially in large numbers.

 

[Minigiant]

Using that logic what are your thoughts on the Barbarian class as a name then? Too racist?

I think the issue was that early fantasy gaming used to sprinkle bits from real Earth cultures onto barbarian tribes to "flavor" them. And since D&D has barely created new culture for these tribes, DMs have tended to continue this outdated practice . Some even sprinkling more.

 

[AnotherGuy]

I think the issue was that early fantasy gaming used to sprinkle bits from real Earth cultures onto barbarian tribes to "flavor" them. And since D&D has barely created new culture for these tribes, DMs have tended to continue this outdated practice . Some even sprinkling more.

So some x many pages back posters reiterated each other that the PHB was filled with racism. I took that claim at face value, I'm a DM - I don't read the PHB from cover to cover but I was curious at some point in the convo so I read the half-orc entry.
I liked it. I liked it a lot actually. And I only read it once, no audit was done by me. But I did post the question "where is the racism in the PHB?" No one replied. I found that strange since I can name 4 active posters in this thread who said there were racist overtones within the PHB.
And I'm not saying they're wrong, since I haven't read enough of the book to make that statement.

At least if we consider that the etymological root of the word barbarian as being racist then I can understand the claim made about the PHB by these posters.

 

[Frozen_Heart]

I think the issue was that early fantasy gaming used to sprinkle bits from real Earth cultures onto barbarian tribes to "flavor" them. And since D&D has barely created new culture for these tribes, DMs have tended to continue this outdated practice . Some even sprinkling more.

I have absolutely no clue why they decided it was a good idea to throw bad caricatures of mongolian and native american cultures onto them. Especially for the psuedo european settings which the default DnD is set in.

Even ignoring the awful stereotyping and racism aspects, it doesn't even fit the theme of a classic medieval europe fantasy.

 

[Hussar]

Off the top of my head. Racist overtone in the phb.

Only mixed races are called out as being subject to fetishization and bigotry.

First bit about half orcs:

But it was often true that a bit of human blood gave a warrior just the right mix of cunning, ambition, and self-discipline to go far indeed, as Mhurren had

Hrm, yeah that’s nice. Being a half orc makes you smarter and more disciplined because heaven knows those “savages” are too stupid and undisciplined.

How many examples do I need to provide?

 

[Guest 85555]

You do realize that ignoring voices and following the “clear” vision is exactly the problem right? Why is listening and following the advice of new voices automatically “design by committee”? Not listening is why we have all these problems.

It isn't about ignoring voices, and what we are debating is whether things like half elves and half orcs are a problem. Again, I am out in the world as well, and what I hear from people doesn't always reflect the complaints that gain traction online. Also on this particular point we've been discussion "Half" has been extremely contentious and many of the people in this thread and elsewhere who have voiced opposition to either changing the term half, taking half elves out as a race option, are people who would identify as having a mixed background (and many seem insulted that they would single out 'half' as a problem). So even if you are trying to listen to people, it isn't as cut and dry as "listen to everyone". You have to use some amount of discernment. But my point before was in response to someone saying now that every criticism was being heard, the game would finally stop having orcs that are stupid and lore that is stupid. I just don't that is the case. I think we aren't going to see lore get better, or the games get more playable, but quite the opposite if things are written to accord with twitter consensus and forum consensus. certainly listen to people, but I think do that in playtest and balance what you are hearing against a clear vision and design goals. When designers are worried about every single critique online, everything everyone says in an age where we all can publicize opinions with a click, it restrains creativity rather than increase it by causing people to constantly second guess their choices

 

[Minigiant]

I have absolutely no clue why they decided it was a good idea to throw bad caricatures of mongolian and native american cultures onto them. Especially for the psuedo european settings which the default DnD is set in.

Even ignoring the awful stereotyping and racism aspects, it doesn't even fit the theme of a classic medieval europe fantasy.

Racial, Ethnic, and Gender sensitivity wasn't a thing in Fantasy Gaming at the time.

That's the whole point of this thread.

Fantasy tabletop gaming at its inception primarily targeted middle class white geeky males of the company's country of origin. So there was little thought about the sensitivity of other demographics and there was no social climate to argue against this.

But companies want everyone's money now. So that old school mentality doesn't fly.

 

[AnotherGuy]

First bit about half orcs:

Hrm, yeah that’s nice. Being a half orc makes you smarter and more disciplined because heaven knows those “savages” are too stupid and undisciplined.

How many examples do I need to provide?

I'm not going to say you are wrong but I will let you know how I interpret it.

Orc alignment bends towards chaos. It's in the PHB.
They have the inherent menacing feature.
Then there is their inherent tie with the Mark of Gruumsh.
I view the human blood diluting the above to some degree, hence the self control as they fight against their natural instincts and their creator's influences.

Orc culture values strength fierceness and his wits. Half orcs being generally weaker than orcs have to rely on cunning to get ahead when amongst other orcs. This is attributed to their human part. Humans cannot be trusted they are viewed as sly, hence the cunning.
Also note no Int modifier is present in 5e.

I'm just trying to present a counterpoint which often seems to get overlooked as we often try find the worst in things.

 

[Remathilis]

Can you provide an example of orcs that don't use the classic tropes, aren't bland, and still feel like orcs?

Elder Scrolls orcs still value strength and combat, and in the past have raided other nations, but they are also master smiths and masons, have a code of honor, and believe wood is an inferior material to steel and stone and never use it for building.

So basically they stole a lot of dwarf and goliath tropes and added them to orcs, but it's a unique take...

 

[Justice and Rule]

Elder Scrolls orcs still value strength and combat, and in the past have raided other nations, but they are also master smiths and masons, have a code of honor, and believe wood is an inferior material to steel and stone and never use it for building.

So basically they stole a lot of dwarf and goliath tropes and added them to orcs, but it's a unique take...

You're going to kind of have to steal generalized tropes that are used by others because, for the most part, most positive tropes are already in use, whether it be by older races (Dwarves) or more recently-created ones (Goliaths). Once you accept that, you can make them interesting within those tropes and focusing on the specifics to make them unique.