D&D (2024) How did I miss this about the Half races/ancestries

[Chaosmancer]

You are waay more optimist than I. I don't ever see colony ships as something viable. From my perspective our limits are the hundred-plus stars within 50 lightyears from the sun. As I mentioned, what can be reached within a human lifetime with sublight speeds.

And I'm more of the opinion that one or more factors in the Drake equation are zeroes, and we are the rounding error.

I'd agree I'm optimistic, but mostly I'm optimistic that we probably will not irreparably explode or poison ourselves to the point we go extinct, and will survive as a species for a billion years or so. After that the rest is just math to me.

And, like I said in the initial point which led to this tangent. I don't see any reason to assume humanity is special. And that includes by assuming that we are a rounding error/ incredibly unlikey.

 

[AnotherGuy]

I prefer the size of the orcs from the WoW movie, whether they're pig-faced or not, that is how I imagine them. Perhaps I need to watch LotR again...

 

[Frozen_Heart]

I'd agree I'm optimistic, but mostly I'm optimistic that we probably will not irreparably explode or poison ourselves to the point we go extinct, and will survive as a species for a billion years or so.

No species survive a billion years. None.

Even if they never die out, they evolve into something else which is no longer that species.

 

[Chaosmancer]

Creative complexity requires more page count. Something somewhere has to give. I wonder where it will be?

So you agree that what we are doing now is identical to what Gygax did before. Well, luckily, it seems what gives is that the books are getting bigger. The MM is already been stated to be bigger than before, why not the PHB and DMG too?

 

[AnotherGuy]

What taught me about these things wasn't just continuing to play D&D but reading history books. I would argue you are going to get a lot more young people interested in history with this highly evocative, simplistic and sometimes blatantly non-historical images that appear in media and games, because they are what sparks curiosity.

This speaks to me and my love for Mystara and the mythos of the Vtes world.
I've read up a little on Romanian history when I was prepping to run a Transylvania By Night Ravenloft game.
I read up on Bulgarian and Serbian superstitions when planning to run a campaign in Karameikos.
I did research on medieval costs when the PCs were interested in building and maintaining a castle.
...etc

 

[Micah Sweet]

So you agree that what we are doing now is identical to what Gygax did before. Well, luckily, it seems what gives is that the books are getting bigger. The MM is already been stated to be bigger than before, why not the PHB and DMG too?

Maybe. Makes me wonder what they're going to charge, or how much of a loss they're going to take on each unit.

 

[AnotherGuy]

So you agree that what we are doing now is identical to what Gygax did before. Well, luckily, it seems what gives is that the books are getting bigger. The MM is already been stated to be bigger than before, why not the PHB and DMG too?

The older editions used smaller font. Feels like they packed more meat into the product. They could cover more - more possibilities to inspire.

 

[Chaosmancer]

But that backstory is cool to have it realized within a long campaign if you make it a focus, perhaps seeping through ever so slightly at first and then bubbling out at the end. There are so many avenues to take with such a story.

The apology of Corellon, the reforging of the orcs, cursing the elven bloodline to ugliness, the abandonment of the Corellon by the elves, judgement of Corellon by his peers, a new homeworld for the orcs, destruction of the elven homeworld, finding the true individual responsible behind their uĝliness, loss of elven "immortality"...etc

I see possibilities for great stories that would otherwise not likely spring into mind if both races were "pretty"

So... what? This doesn't even make sense. Painting Gruumsh as pure evil villainy and Corellon as the good guy in official lore, only so you can rewrite the story and "get justice" in a campaign, something that has never happened in the 50 years of DnD lore, ever?

This is like pure Oberroni fallacy, the lore isn't bad, it is good because it being done this way allows me to come in and write a story fixing the lore. And it has nothing to do with the orcs being "pretty" or not, it has everything to do with the fact that when you look into Gruumsh's motivations, and take away the "grr, I'm evil" parts... he's actually got good motivations. He's at war with the elves because the Elven God tried to deny his children from existing, and the elves, humans and dwarves attack his children on sight in much of the multiverse. It takes... literally no effort, to take Gruumsh and make him a hero. But he is evil, and the orc are evil, because they attack the "good guys".

And all this is why I don't particularly find "the mark of Gruumsh" compelling enough to excuse lines from the books like how they can have a veneer of civilization, but bestial rage simmers just under the surface waiting to get out.

 

[Chaosmancer]

I think this subject is probably too beyond the topic for us to keep going back and forth forever on, but I would just say here, the problem is 'personhood' as it has been defined so far in this thread, and as it usually is defined, doesn't include 'human being' as part of its definition. I believe the definition people offered here was something like sapience + free will equals personhood. And the problem is once you make an argument that an individual doesn't have one of both of those, you can label them a non-person. The idea of personhood is something that can be used, to exclude some from personhood. Like I said, I certainly wouldn't want to see a self aware and humanlike race of aliens denied these rights either, but I would like to make sure if we are going to use this term that human beings are a part of the definition (we are all automatically people) and that we at least don't confer to unmet races of aliens yet automatically because we have no idea what those may be. But it seems we at least agree that all humans should be regarded as persons, which is something good I think.

I guess where I struggle with your point is 1) why having no idea what aliens are like means we can't give grace in terms of our interpretation 2) What arguments you think are possible to exclude humans if we expand as I talk about.

I mean, sure, you can argue free-will doesn't exist, but then that applies to all humans and likely all people. There isn't a specific instance that denies free-will to one person, but keeps it for another. And if it is, it would be like trying to argue that since the definition of human include bipedalism, that someone who was born without legs isn't human. That's obviously false, because definitions of things such as this are obviously going to have exceptions for exceptional situations, but that doesn't change the baseline to allow discrimination to be okay.

 

[AnotherGuy]

So... what? This doesn't even make sense. Painting Gruumsh as pure evil villainy and Corellon as the good guy in official lore, only so you can rewrite the story and "get justice" in a campaign, something that has never happened in the 50 years of DnD lore, ever?

Yes. That's the inspiration I get from the lore you provided. I would not have the inspiration for those stories if that lore never existed. And it's not for D&D to tell it, but for me the consumer to be inspired and create my own stories for my table.

And all this is why I don't particularly find "the mark of Gruumsh" compelling enough to excuse lines from the books like how they can have a veneer of civilization, but bestial rage simmers just under the surface waiting to get out.

I do. Think of it as in Vtes where vampires struggle with containing the Beast. Or Toreador distracted by beauty. Or halflings fighting their inquisitive nature. Why must every creature be seemingly bland with no supernatural taint or call driving it.

Edit: This discussion will not be worth it. You're literally going against my desire to be creative with the lore provide.