D&D (2024) Dear Team WotC: Better Pact Magic Fixes

[HammerMan]

Then I hope for your sake that Kobold's Warlock is more up your ally, but there is no way in Baator this warlock isn't getting some form of Vancian magic.

So you think WoTC won’t listen to feed back?

 

[HammerMan]

My fix would be put pact magic and mystic arcanum back as is from 2014 PHB but add an invocation that can give you 1 spell slot of first level if you take a second time gives you a 2nd level all the way up until you can have a 4th level slot.

 

[WanderingMystic]

Ok, so here is an out there suggestion (and I can already hear the screaming…heh):

If I understand correctly, the game expects most parties to get 2 short rests between long rests. This means a warlock can use their entire allotment of Pact Magic three times between long rests in an ideal situation.

So, how about we leave everything about Pact Magic the exact way it is. However, instead of recharging on a short rest, warlocks get triple the slots and recharge on a long rest.

Right now, a 5th level Warlock gets 2 max level slots, recharge on a short. Instead, they would get 6 max level slots, recharge on a long.

The amount of spells they can cast should be the same, without the warlock being dependent on begging for short rests, so it shouldn’t step on any other classes toes. This still means the Warlock needs to watch their resources, but frees them to Nova along with the other characters if needed. And they won’t be hindered if they are in an adventure that makes Short Rests prohibitive. Also, it removes the need to invent new abilities like “Channel Patron” or the like.

Anyway, just spitballing here. But if I’m right, the math works out the same, keeps the Pact Magic flavour, and removes the recharge angst.

I can see that stepping on the toes of every other caster with just how hard the warlock would be able to nova at that point.

I think that if you want to make the pact magic work just mimic the usage off of Channel Divinity

Also with the way things are going I could see it being a cantrips with a one hour casting time but that you can cast in 1 minute a number of times equal to half your proficiency bonus rounded down.

 

[Mistwell]

I have literally never said this because I don't expect it. What I expect is that it will vary between sessions and sometimes the warlock is significantly OP and at other times they aren't. But fundamentally I expect there to be two "natural" breaks in the day for lunch and dinner.
[cut examples]
So no I don't expect short rests whenever. I do however expect days that aren't five minute adventuring days - and to get one to two short rests in in them. And I expect PCs to eat and that to be a short rest.

OK fair enough I might be thinking of someone else who was saying it should be no issue to short rest rather than you. Sorry about that.

If they were just using their pact magic as spells this might be a point. But warlocks also have invocations and (non-blade) pact boons. It takes a sixth level specialist illusionist wizard to keep up with a second level warlock for illusions (and they can then beat the warlock to a pulp because they can do more). And wizards don't start getting at will spells until IIRC level 17.

I think you can agree their spell slots were supposed to be meaningful and if WOTC is finding a whole lot of Warlock players horde those spell slots due to their scarcity to the point they end up not using them and they're effectively not even there (which is what Crawford says in the video) then that's a problem for the class that should be fixed. Which is what this thread is about - Pact Magic, which is that issue.

You physically can't be a solid spellcaster without high level magic. The paladin is a solid warrior. The ranger is a solid skill monkey. The artificer is a solid ... disappointment? There are precisely zero solid spellcasters with half-casting.

Or do you genuinely think that the paladin fits what you consider a solid spellcaster to be? Solid class, yes.

And they don't have to track their invocations unless they've been silly and picked a trap. This is something wizards can't do until level 17.

I have.

I think you cannot describe a Warlock as a "solid spellcaster" without those spell slots being used. Do you disagree?

 

[Reef]

I can see that stepping on the toes of every other caster with just how hard the warlock would be able to nova at that point.

I think that if you want to make the pact magic work just mimic the usage off of Channel Divinity

Also with the way things are going I could see it being a cantrips with a one hour casting time but that you can cast in 1 minute a number of times equal to half your proficiency bonus rounded down.

Fair enough. I wasn’t sure, since they’d still be limited to the same number of spells over all. I figured I’d ask, since I’d assume someone would know why it was a bad idea

I’m absolutely ok with the Channel Divinity recharge route. Just was wondering if this would accomplish the same thing with less steps.

Thanks for taking the time to comment!

 

[Mirrorrorrim]

Ok, so here is an out there suggestion (and I can already hear the screaming…heh):

If I understand correctly, the game expects most parties to get 2 short rests between long rests. This means a warlock can use their entire allotment of Pact Magic three times between long rests in an ideal situation.

So, how about we leave everything about Pact Magic the exact way it is. However, instead of recharging on a short rest, warlocks get triple the slots and recharge on a long rest.

Right now, a 5th level Warlock gets 2 max level slots, recharge on a short. Instead, they would get 6 max level slots, recharge on a long.

The amount of spells they can cast should be the same, without the warlock being dependent on begging for short rests, so it shouldn’t step on any other classes toes. This still means the Warlock needs to watch their resources, but frees them to Nova along with the other characters if needed. And they won’t be hindered if they are in an adventure that makes Short Rests prohibitive. Also, it removes the need to invent new abilities like “Channel Patron” or the like.

Anyway, just spitballing here. But if I’m right, the math works out the same, keeps the Pact Magic flavour, and removes the recharge angst.

How big of an alpha strike/hail-mary does this give them? Below is the how your math translates out over the life of the class, using fireball as a basis of comparison, though other spells may be way cooler.
.
Level 1: 3 1st-level Pact spells per day.
Level 2: 6 1st-level Pact spells.
Levels 3-4: 6 spells upcast to 2nd-level.
Levels 5-6: 6 spells upcast to 3rd-level. That's 6 8d6 Fireballs
Levels 7-8: 6 spells upcast to 4th-level. That's 6 9d6 Fireballs, or better 4th level spells.
Levels 9-10: 6 spells upcast to 5th-level. That's 6 10d6 Fireballs, or better 4th or 5th level spells.
Levels 11-16: 9 spells upcast to 5th-level. That's 9 10d6 Fireballs, or better 4th or 5th level spells.
Levels 17-20: 12 spells upcast to 5th-level. That's 12 10d6 Fireballs, or better 4th or 5th level spells.

 

[WanderingMystic]

Fair enough. I wasn’t sure, since they’d still be limited to the same number of spells over all. I figured I’d ask, since I’d assume someone would know why it was a bad idea

I’m absolutely ok with the Channel Divinity recharge route. Just was wondering if this would accomplish the same thing with less steps.

Thanks for taking the time to comment!

I think the big problem is that at 5th level you would have given them 6 3rd level spells that they could use in one battle. While the wizard has 4/3/2 so only 3 more spells in total but 4 less third level spells.

The channel divinity route is 3 with the ability to recharge one per short rest so more up front and the ability to still have 6 spell slots but only after 2 short rests which they may or may not be able to get.

 

[Reef]

How big of an alpha strike/hail-mary does this give them? Below is the how your math translates out over the life of the class, using fireball as a basis of comparison, though other spells may be way cooler.
.
Level 1: 3 1st-level Pact spells per day.
Level 2: 6 1st-level Pact spells.
Levels 3-4: 6 spells upcast to 2nd-level.
Levels 5-6: 6 spells upcast to 3rd-level. That's 6 8d6 Fireballs
Levels 7-8: 6 spells upcast to 4th-level. That's 6 9d6 Fireballs, or better 4th level spells.
Levels 9-10: 6 spells upcast to 5th-level. That's 6 10d6 Fireballs, or better 4th or 5th level spells.
Levels 11-16: 9 spells upcast to 5th-level. That's 9 10d6 Fireballs, or better 4th or 5th level spells.
Levels 17-20: 12 spells upcast to 5th-level. That's 12 10d6 Fireballs, or better 4th or 5th level spells.

And again, much smarter people than me prevail! Thanks for laying it out so clearly!

 

[Reef]

I think the big problem is that at 5th level you would have given them 6 3rd level spells that they could use in one battle. While the wizard has 4/3/2 so only 3 more spells in total but 4 less third level spells.

The channel divinity route is 3 with the ability to recharge one per short rest so more up front and the ability to still have 6 spell slots but only after 2 short rests which they may or may not be able to get.

And this why I’ll go back to commenting on other peoples designs .

Thanks!

 

[mellored]

So you think WoTC won’t listen to feed back?

If there was clear feedback, yes.

But if half the fans want the old style, half like the new style... someone will be disappointed.