D&D (2024) Why is wotc still aiming for PCs with 10 *real word* feet of range? W/o vision range penalty/limit rules for the GM?

[Hussar]

Again, though, this ignores the primary point.

If you have 600 feet of unobstructed view between two opponents, there's no need for a battlemap. What's the point? There's no tactical positioning going on. So, why insist on using a battlemap when one is not needed? And I say this as someone who hasn't done theater of the mind combat in about twenty years. But, seriously, what's the point of using a battlemap when you have a two hundred yard featureless plane?

 

[Stalker0]

All editions of D&D seem to share this "insanity" of longbow having a 200 yd (or more) range. I have no idea why it would suddenly be a problem now.

EDIT: My info was inaccurate in places originally, so I have updated this post with the corrections.

4e its 200 feet (technically 40 squares, and in 4e terms a square is 5 ft).

Also found this old 1e basic box set book, and the longbow is..... 210 feet. (Page B27 if you want to check yourself). The crossbow is interestingly enough the longest range there at 240 feet.

https://ia902509.us.archive.org/34/items/adventure-creature-crucible-pc-4-night-howlers_202204/Accessory%20Dungeons%20%26%20Dragons%201%20Basic%20Box%20Set.pdf

However, in the expert edition (Tsr 01012 B Expert Rules ( Dark Blue Box) : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive PG 22) they added the rule that when doing outdoors, you convert the feet ranges to yards. So we get ranges of 510-630 feet for bows outdoors (depending on the kind of arrow, the more "hunting focused" arrows are 510).

Moving to 2nd edition (page 146)

Dungeons and Dragons, Second Edition, All 26 Books : Gary Gygax : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive

Entire collection of all 26 AD&D Second edition books Index:Player's Handbook: 1Dungeon Master's Guide: 578Monstruous Manual: 1045Complete book of Dwarves:...

archive.org

Longbow is....510-630 feet.


So it looks like we have had some back and forth on this one, but overall most of dnd history had "insanely long" bow ranges.

 

[Stalker0]

Also, on what planet do you have 600 feet of clear sight lines?

Never seen open plains before?

Don't let our modern cities and boxed in houses fool you, there are tons of areas on earth that are sprawling, nigh featureless, tracts of land as far as the eye can see.

Or we could just take from our own DMG, I quote:

"
Chapter 8 of the DMG; Visibility Outdoors:

When traveling outdoors, characters can see about 2 miles in any direction on a clear day, or until the point where trees, hills, or other obstructions block their view. Rain normally cuts maximum visibility down to 1 mile, and fog can cut it down to between 100 and 300 feet.
On a clear day, the characters can see 40 miles if they are atop a mountain or a tall hill, or are otherwise able to look down on the area around them from a height.

So yes, in many types of terrain, 600 feet is frankly a short distance to see other things.

 

[Reef]

Never seen open plains before?

View attachment 283589


Don't let our modern cities and boxed in houses fool you, there are tons of areas on earth that are sprawling, nigh featureless, tracts of land as far as the eye can see.

Well, that’s hardly a battlefield where exact positioning at extreme range matters. Does it matter if a monster is 505’ away or 510? So I don’t see why the battle grid would need to cover every 5’ of that scene.

Wait, this is the other discussion, isn’t it? The bow one instead of the grid one? Or have they merged? Not being facetious, I’m seriously getting confused as there seems to be multiple branches here.

 

[tetrasodium]

Again, though, this ignores the primary point.

If you have 600 feet of unobstructed view between two opponents, there's no need for a battlemap. What's the point? There's no tactical positioning going on. So, why insist on using a battlemap when one is not needed? And I say this as someone who hasn't done theater of the mind combat in about twenty years. But, seriously, what's the point of using a battlemap when you have a two hundred yard featureless plane?

The battle map that has been on the table since session start and was there before the players said "wait no, we want to back up and..."? Remember, it's a flick of the mouse & a couple of clicks nt fetishized minis & terrain. Eventually the gm resisting this will either crash into puppetry of PCs or mevsdungeon shaped outdoors & we are still talking about a system that provides players with multiple ways to state "but I have a thing that let's me ignore cover."

 

[Stalker0]

Well, that’s hardly a battlefield where exact positioning at extreme range matters. Does it matter if a monster is 505’ away or 510? So I don’t see why the battle grid would need to cover every 5’ of that scene.

Wait, this is the other discussion, isn’t it? The bow one instead of the grid one? Or have they merged? Not being facetious, I’m seriously getting confused as there seems to be multiple branches here.

Yes I'll admit that I have focused discussion on bow ranges, as to me they are the principle cause of the range issue.

If you lower ranges to a more 200 feetish basis, then you can just completely ignore longer ranges for encounters (as there is nothing really to do at those ranges), and so all possible encounter ranges become grid viable should a dm care to do so (and of course can always ignore the grid should they wish to wing the combat).

And as I noted before, this is how dnd used to play. Early editions had much shorter ranges, though you could get mid level magics starting to get out into 300ish feet range (like 2nd fireball from a 10th level wizard as example).... ranges of 600 something feet just weren't there.

 

[nevin]

you do realize the range on a modern longbow is 500 yard and that's only 50 yards more than early version.

Soldiers in the military train using targets from 75 to 300m without scopes. DND vision rules are arbitrary and nothing like real life. People that are trained to spot and track learn very quickly that your vision and your brain will pick out motion very easily even at a distance. Trying to limit your players weapon or spell abilities because it makes your job easier is a negative sum game.

 

[Reef]

Yes I'll admit that I have focused discussion on bow ranges, as to me they are the principle cause of the range issue.

If you lower ranges to a more 200 feetish basis, then you can just completely ignore longer ranges for encounters (as there is nothing really to do at those ranges), and so all possible encounter ranges become grid viable should a dm care to do so (and of course can always ignore the grid should they wish to wing the combat).

And as I noted before, this is how dnd used to play. Early editions had much shorter ranges, though you could get mid level magics starting to get out into 300ish feet range (like 2nd fireball from a 10th level wizard as example).... ranges of 600 something feet just weren't there.

It’s been a long time, but didn’t 1e use different ranges for indoors an out? Like an inch of range was feet inside, and then yards out? Or was that just for spells.

 

[nevin]

I think the answer is implied in @tetrasodium ’s title.

The game isn’t balanced if the archer gets four rounds of combat before everyone else does. The DM doesn’t want to do that to the other players and the other players most likely don’t want it either. We know how some players react to any GM fiat that isn’t to their immediate benefit.

The answer is vision distances based on assumptions of terrain and cover, which 5e doesn’t have. I’d be included to lean on the 3e versions if it came up.

this is where rogues and rangers come in. Every class has their niches, though modern DND keeps trying to remove them and make everyone the same. In real world combat you either suffer the damage of closing the gap, or you circle round or sneak up. Why should your DND game be different.

 

[Irlo]

It’s been a long time, but didn’t 1e use different ranges for indoors an out? Like an inch of range was feet inside, and then yards out? Or was that just for spells.

That's was for both spells and ranged weapons in 1e. There were also negative modifiers on attack rolls at medium and long range.