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D&D (2024) Why is wotc still aiming for PCs with 10 *real word* feet of range? W/o vision range penalty/limit rules for the GM?

Ok bowing out. I literally cannot begin to parse @tetrasodium’s posts. If someone could translate please?

But the point is fair though. Removing long range would likely have zero impact on the game. The vast majority of combat does not occur at those distances. Limiting range to 200 feet would be fine AFAIC.
 

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Ok bowing out. I literally cannot begin to parse @tetrasodium’s posts. If someone could translate please?

But the point is fair though. Removing long range would likely have zero impact on the game. The vast majority of combat does not occur at those distances. Limiting range to 200 feet would be fine AFAIC.
IME it would alter the game quite a bit from a Combat As War standpoint, though not necessarily for the worse.

In today's 5E ruleset, having a Sharpshooter in the party trivializes certain problems, which means you can solve certain other problems by reducing them to already-solved problems.

Example: from a Combat As War standpoint, if you've got a party that includes a Sharpshooter Eldritch Knight 8 with Expeditious Retreat and forty hobgoblins in a wooden fortification guarding a pass, what makes the hobgoblins an obstacle is the total cover they can get from the fort. If the wizard can cast Invisibility on the rogue, who sets fire to the fort and burns it down, then you don't actually have to play out in detail all of the individual hobgoblin deaths: they can't win (assuming reasonable intelligence on the part of the PCs).

So here we have something which is never directly shown in play (a fight between a Sharpshooter and 40 Hobgoblins, involving hundreds of die rolls and ending in a bunch of dead or surrendered hobs) which would nevertheless impact play if weapon ranges were reduced ("invisible thief burns down fort" would no longer be as attractive as a strategy).
 

Heh, there is actually some irony here.

I'm just about to start a SPELLJAMMER campaign. Now, here's a campaign where massive range combat should probably play out regularly. Heck, you're pretty much expected to have siege weaponry available regularly. But, here's the trick. I know, beyond a shadow of a doubt, that my group hates ship to ship combat. They have absolutely no interest in it. Even when I suggested a much more abstract, theater of the mind sort of system, they were less than enthusiastic.

So, I changed the rules. The gravity envelopes of ships are erratic at the edges. Meaning that you cannot shoot from ship to ship because the gravity planes will distort the shot, causing it to zoom off in random directions both as it leaves the gravity plane and, even if you were lucky enough to hit the other ship, that ship's gravity plane will cause the shot to veer wildly.

Thus, all combat is pretty much boarding actions. Ships have to combine their gravity planes before they can fight each other.

Poof, problem solved.

Edit because I’m an idiot.
 
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Heh, there is actually some irony here.

I'm just about to start a Planescape campaign. Now, here's a campaign where massive range combat should probably play out regularly. Heck, you're pretty much expected to have siege weaponry available regularly. But, here's the trick. I know, beyond a shadow of a doubt, that my group hates ship to ship combat. They have absolutely no interest in it. Even when I suggested a much more abstract, theater of the mind sort of system, they were less than enthusiastic.

So, I changed the rules. The gravity envelopes of ships are erratic at the edges. Meaning that you cannot shoot from ship to ship because the gravity planes will distort the shot, causing it to zoom off in random directions both as it leaves the gravity plane and, even if you were lucky enough to hit the other ship, that ship's gravity plane will cause the shot to veer wildly.

Thus, all combat is pretty much boarding actions. Ships have to combine their gravity planes before they can fight each other.

Poof, problem solved.
I was confused for a hot minute, then I realized you meant Spelljammer.
 


IME it would alter the game quite a bit from a Combat As War standpoint, though not necessarily for the worse.

In today's 5E ruleset, having a Sharpshooter in the party trivializes certain problems, which means you can solve certain other problems by reducing them to already-solved problems.

Example: from a Combat As War standpoint, if you've got a party that includes a Sharpshooter Eldritch Knight 8 with Expeditious Retreat and forty hobgoblins in a wooden fortification guarding a pass, what makes the hobgoblins an obstacle is the total cover they can get from the fort. If the wizard can cast Invisibility on the rogue, who sets fire to the fort and burns it down, then you don't actually have to play out in detail all of the individual hobgoblin deaths: they can't win (assuming reasonable intelligence on the part of the PCs).

So here we have something which is never directly shown in play (a fight between a Sharpshooter and 40 Hobgoblins, involving hundreds of die rolls and ending in a bunch of dead or surrendered hobs) which would nevertheless impact play if weapon ranges were reduced ("invisible thief burns down fort" would no longer be as attractive as a strategy).
Depends on how they were reduced. Right now the ranges are designed in a way that binds the gm's hands to allow a player to say they don't care about all but the most blatant of "you can't" levels of of shutdown from the gm.

If they were reduced to something like "100foot*" with the star being a footnote that sometimes the gm might deem longer ranges appropriate things change towards mutual fun for the table. That sort of footnote was suggested by someone earlier & it changes long range engagement from binding the gm to empowering the gm in ways that let them create fun. Using your scenario of the tower the gm can choose to allow the archer to make a meaningful impact that still includes the rest of the group in a plan that fits the toolset available to the other PCs instead of just making the gm handwave the whole scenario. With that kind of footnoted empowerment GMs even go back to creating old school problems some other player(s) would need to solve by being awesome too as part of the new scenario by declarative fiat without pushback over RAW because the whole thing is the gm using rule zero to empower everyone to be awesome.

Why not make the VTT generate the details? A good VTT should be able to accept GM input stating something like "fill in the quarter mile between the road and the farmhouse with rough terrain: wheat fields in the process of growing and occasional rocks, trees, or creeks."

Isn't the whole point of VTTs that they can be customized via plugins/etc.?

If that's not supported you can always just tell your players the above, and ask them to ask you to insert rocks and creekbeds anywhere important that they imagine them. (Any region neither you nor the players care about is fairly safe to ignore.)

To answer your question from post 180 yes there are tools like flowscape that could generate that kind of thing & it's absolutely trivial to use a randomized brush tool

Filling it manually is trivial as shown & not too tough but runs into one of two very serious problems that IME defeat the purpose in practice. It runs into those problems because the mechanics of 5e fight to ensure the collision by overextending the effective range of PCs while stripping GMs of tools once present in the past to manage those ranges.

Ultimately those problems go back into straining the social contract when it's already taking some pressure from the GM nerfing the "several thousand yards" of vision and players assume themselves to have in support of comically over-ranged abilities that the GM will often also need to stomp just to keep the encounter something the group can all participate in. Either the terrain is so densely packed with things that provide total cover that you've just created the equivalent of a forest sized = hedge wall/maze to block LoS from anywhere to anywhere that very much does not belong in most places -or- it looks OK & is believable but it can almost certainly be ignored just by a PC moving to the side a bit to where there is clear LoS to the target after asking the gm to zoom out. You can't make an entire world that looks like the darien gap seem at all believable.

All of the people who keep saying things like "the DM should just do x" & "just tell your players Y" throughout this entire thread have been demonstrating very clearly hoe much pressure doing those things places on the social contract too. No matter what the GM does to fix this rules issue there will be a bunch of other things that a real GM with proper skills should have done instead & one or two of those might knowingly or unknowingly nerf or shut down a particular player in ways that player feels nonplussed or worse about.
 

Depends on how they were reduced. Right now the ranges are designed in a way that binds the gm's hands to allow a player to say they don't care about all but the most blatant of "you can't" levels of of shutdown from the gm.
No there are tons of ways. Say there is a hill, rock, trees or wall blocking line of sight.
 

To answer your question from post 180 yes there are tools like flowscape that could generate that kind of thing & it's absolutely trivial to use a randomized brush tool

Filling it manually is trivial as shown & not too tough but runs into one of two very serious problems that IME defeat the purpose in practice. It runs into those problems because the mechanics of 5e fight to ensure the collision by overextending the effective range of PCs while stripping GMs of tools once present in the past to manage those ranges.
The question is why you are bothering with those tools. You just need a map of the main area going beyond that is unneeded.

You keep saying the GM is restrained or lacks tools. The GM has unlimited tools, you can say anything and it’s the truth for the game world. Say there is fog or terrain blocking sight. Your problem is trivially easy to solve and entirely of your own making. I also use VTTs and have played with strangers tons of times as a DM. Non of what you are talking about has been a problem.
 

  • Converted to 5ft game distance to one inch real world squares:
    • An entire soccer or football field is 6feet of real world table space
    • Olympic sized swimming pool 2.7feet of real world table space
    • The 102 floor empire state building laying on its side , roughly 20.8 feet of real world table space from ground to roof. This is a number that will come up again.


  • Longbow, 10ft of table space of table space.
  • hexer(pg36) 10ft of table space of table space.
  • modify spell & distant spell 3.5ft feet of table space at level 7 & increasing with 6inch increments every level till a full 10ftof table space is reached at at 20.
  • light crossbow & shortbow 5.3feet of table space.
  • heavy crossbow 6.6ft of table space.
  • Musket hand crossbow & sling 1 foot of table space.
  • Devil's sight provides a diameter of vision that is four full feet of table space
  • standard 30ft PC move speed 1/2 foot of real world table space or double if dashing.
Battlemats made by off the shelf chessex range from 23.5x26inch (1.95...x2.16.. ft)to 48x36(4ftx3ft). PCs shouldn't have abilities that make them look like inappropriately sized hacks. With a VTT capable of scaling to support an unreasonably huge battlefields of space that the GM now needs to both fill and manage the herculean task of running anything that might be in it without just roflstomping their players with a zerg rush using the soon to be forgotten possible extras they are wasting time & brainpower on throughout the combat rather than creating an interesting combat.

How huge? roughly one empire state building on it's side by one empire state building on it's side. That is an excessive burden in the extreme.
From the Dungeon Master's Screen (2015):
ENCOUNTER DISTANCE
TerrainEncounter Distance
Arctic, desert, farmland, or grassland6d6 x 10 feet
Forest, swamp, or woodland2d8 x 10 feet
Hills or wastelands2d10 x 10 feet
Jungle2d6 x 10 feet
Mountains4d10 x 10 feet
 

Depends on how they were reduced. Right now the ranges are designed in a way that binds the gm's hands to allow a player to say they don't care about all but the most blatant of "you can't" levels of of shutdown from the gm.
Credit where it is due. The ruleset of 'right now' does have has some helpful shutdowns present, even if people seem not to use them (usually for perfectly good reasons). Feats are optional*, meaning that sharpshooter is optional. Half and three-quarters cover are a lot easier for the DM to argue covers most situations than full cover. Especially if you include IRL realistic battlefield features such as 'this is wild plains, once you get off the trail the grass is chest high,' or 'you are amongst deciduous trees, anything after a certain distance is likely to have a branch in the way,' and 'there is a gradual incline here I'm not treating as difficult terrain, but it means you will not have a straight shot to your opponent after X feet.' Likewise, being able to attack out to 600' is a lot less devastating when it's at disadvantage from 150' onwards). Another rule in the books that helps is tracking arrows (and encumbrance in general). Too few gold sinks after a certain point and Bags of Holding risk disrupting this limit, but OTOH it's not exactly a huge blatant-you-can't to suggest that it's inadvisable to store massively multiple sharp objects in a vessel that is destroyed (scattering all contents to the Astral Plane) if pierced or torn (else for what is the much-more-constrained Quiver of Ehlonna designed?).
*I know, try telling that to your players. Putting them (and the multiclass rules) in the PHB instead of the DMG may have killed that option for most groups. Also, lots of DMs don't want to get rid of feats in general, because many are fun.
If they were reduced to something like "100foot*" with the star being a footnote that sometimes the gm might deem longer ranges appropriate things change towards mutual fun for the table.
Think that's me (although I think I had it the other way, with the asterisk clarifying that usually the range would be far less than listed). Either way, it's still my preferred solution to the situation. Put an asterisk on the weapon chart, and a big paragraph in the encounter-designing and combat sections about how actual max bowshot or weapon-throw ranges are longer, but the situationals of un-massed skirmishing opponents and most combats not being on perfectly feature- and topography-less locations make effective combat range (for game-normal encounters) being much lower. Otherwise, if you do just reduce range in the books, we'd just end up with the reverse situation (someone wanting to shoot an arrow across a ravine or at a non-moving scarecrow in an empty flat field or such) complaining about how ridiculously short the ranges are.
 

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