D&D General Fighting Law and Order

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Why not?

Seriously. A good fan of a sports team does not simply want that team to win. Far from it. Most sports aficionados I know hate it when any sport they're watching ends up being an absolute slaughter where there was only one side that ever had a chance of winning, even when "their side" wins like that! Had two recent instances of that in racing, one with my parents watching NASCAR, the other with friends commenting on the current state of Formula 1. For the former, there have been a couple qualifying races of some kind (I don't watch much racing myself) where by the final few laps, it was just impossible for anyone but the lead car to win, which drains away most of the excitement and interest of the race. It's obviously less stressful for the lead driver but pretty dull as far as sport goes. Formula 1 apparently has a pervasive problem where the Red Bull team vehicles are simply the best there is, and their lead driver is simply one of the best F1 drivers ever, so every race he participates in is a race he will win, no question. That's just not interesting, even for people who love F1.

Hence, as the book says, being a "fan" of the characters is NOT just making everything they encounter happy and beautiful and wonderful, forever and ever, amen. It means wanting to see those characters do interesting and exciting things, struggle against actual difficulty, and grow and change as their adventures shape who (and what!) they are. It means you want them to be truly able to fail, so that success tastes sweet, but you also don't want their stories to come to an abrupt and unsatisfying end either. Some tragic endings are satisfying, some are not—but as the preceding paragraph hopefully showed, some triumphal endings are unsatisfying too!

Hence, you want to build something where genuine, meaningful, impactful failure IS a thing, but not where that failure means "and thus nothing came of it." The adventure goes on, even if the goals fail. Sometimes especially if they fail! I've had a blast GMing whole plotlines that never would have happened but for a player "failing" a roll, inducing me to Reveal an Unwelcome Truth (note, another Principle is "Never speak the name of your move" as GM), and then exploring that unwelcome truth gave us a huge story that continues to influence the future of the campaign.

Failure, both potential and realized, is essential for being a fan.
See, my problem.is that I don't see the conflict and struggle of most RPGs in terms of a sport, so I don't feel the need to force said conflicts to be "sporting". The obstacles are what they are, and the PCs have what they have to overcome them, including the judgement of their players at the helm. If that means they roll over the opposition, so be it. If that means they make an error and get themselves slaughtered (or nearly so), so be it.
 

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I think that's fine, but I also think that it's important to recognize the actual process happening isn't so much about the setting's existence outside of the PCs, but, rather, about with your own perception of the setting as a player. Again, I think that there is nothing wrong with desiring this sort of illusionism about the game setting.
And that's fine, but I absolutely do have a problem with that sort of illusionism. It completely breaks my sense of immersion as a player, and is something I would never do as a DM. I cannot have fun in a game like that, at least if that game is trying to be D&D.
 

See, the whole thing where players just make up stuff about NPCs that have nothing to do with the character just drives me crazy. To me it makes the entire setting meaningless because it has no existence outside the PCs.
Why not? It's not like the DM doesn't do that too. Are you saying the entire setting as no existence outside the DM? Why does the DM being the arbitrary world-rewriter get a special pass? They control FAR more of it than any PC ever would. And most games give enormous leeway for PCs to talk about their character backstory. Would you really want the DM to micromanage your backstory? "No, you didn't have a sister, you're an only child. And your parents died in a fire when your village burnt down while you were away, they aren't alive, so sorry for your loss. Your surrogate parent was your wizarding professor who mentored you until they lost their tenure due to them being unwilling to play crappy office politics. Now they just stay at home and experiment, and learn to play the harpsichord, though honestly they couldn't hold a tune in a bucket." I would utterly despise that! Yet the player having control over that is EXACTLY the same as giving them control over any other set-dressing element, be it NPC (sibling, parents, mentor), location (wizard college, village), historical event (village burnt down), or cultural detail (harpsichords exist and refined, educated people play them.)

And if it's going to become more than just set-dressing, it will almost always require a move to do so. Some of those moves will require die rolling, others won't.
 


Why not? It's not like the DM doesn't do that too. Are you saying the entire setting as no existence outside the DM? Why does the DM being the arbitrary world-rewriter get a special pass? They control FAR more of it than any PC ever would. And most games give enormous leeway for PCs to talk about their character backstory. Would you really want the DM to micromanage your backstory? "No, you didn't have a sister, you're an only child. And your parents died in a fire when your village burnt down while you were away, they aren't alive, so sorry for your loss. Your surrogate parent was your wizarding professor who mentored you until they lost their tenure due to them being unwilling to play crappy office politics. Now they just stay at home and experiment, and learn to play the harpsichord, though honestly they couldn't hold a tune in a bucket." I would utterly despise that! Yet the player having control over that is EXACTLY the same as giving them control over any other set-dressing element, be it NPC (sibling, parents, mentor), location (wizard college, village), historical event (village burnt down), or cultural detail (harpsichords exist and refined, educated people play them.)

And if it's going to become more than just set-dressing, it will almost always require a move to do so. Some of those moves will require die rolling, others won't.
I specifically called out a player "making stuff up at the table about a PC that has nothing to do with their PC". This is not PC backstory we're talking about here.

And the DM is the world writer, for everything that isn't controlled by the PC, unless the game or the group says otherwise. I'm not talking about Dungeon World, a game I strongly dislike for the reasons stated above. I'm talking about what I want out of a gaming experience, and what I don't want.
 

You got this somewhat backwards. The sort of illusionism* that I described represents your goal.

* not in the Forge sense
What sense do you mean then? People love quoting the Forge around here, so I sort of assumed their jargon was at play.

Before you get started, I am an avowed simulationist, and will not be swayed by the often-used claim that my style of gaming isn't real, or is impossible.
 

Why not? It's not like the DM doesn't do that too. Are you saying the entire setting as no existence outside the DM? Why does the DM being the arbitrary world-rewriter get a special pass? They control FAR more of it than any PC ever would. And most games give enormous leeway for PCs to talk about their character backstory. Would you really want the DM to micromanage your backstory? "No, you didn't have a sister, you're an only child. And your parents died in a fire when your village burnt down while you were away, they aren't alive, so sorry for your loss. Your surrogate parent was your wizarding professor who mentored you until they lost their tenure due to them being unwilling to play crappy office politics. Now they just stay at home and experiment, and learn to play the harpsichord, though honestly they couldn't hold a tune in a bucket." I would utterly despise that! Yet the player having control over that is EXACTLY the same as giving them control over any other set-dressing element, be it NPC (sibling, parents, mentor), location (wizard college, village), historical event (village burnt down), or cultural detail (harpsichords exist and refined, educated people play them.)

And if it's going to become more than just set-dressing, it will almost always require a move to do so. Some of those moves will require die rolling, others won't.

I would want the DM to edit my backstory if it didn't fit the campaign world. So "No your parents were not killed by orcs because orcs don't exist in this world, a different option would be ..." is fine. The DM knows more about their world than I do, so I rely on them to help me decide what makes sense.

Whether I'm DMing or playing, I think backstories can be an interesting part of the game. However, they have to fit the bigger picture. The backstories also can't be overly grandiose. Your first level character did not lead an army, slay an ancient red dragon or discover the secrets of immortality last week.
 

What sense do you mean then? People love quoting the Forge around here, so I sort of assumed their jargon was at play.

Before you get started, I am an avowed simulationist, and will not be swayed by the often-used claim that my style of gaming isn't real, or is impossible.
Before you get started, I am not trying to dissuade you from your gaming preferences and there is absolutely no need to get defensive. When I say this about illusionism:
Again, I think that there is nothing wrong with desiring this sort of illusionism about the game setting.
I am referring to the bold:
I think that's fine, but I also think that it's important to recognize the actual process happening isn't so much about the setting's existence outside of the PCs, but, rather, about with your own perception of the setting as a player.
Believe it or not, I am reaffirming your preference here, Micah, and that it's okay that you like what you like. I do believe that the setting still has "existence" outside of the PCs (as far as they are concerned) even if the GM and players are negotiating the content of the setting at the table. However, I understand that not everyone likes that because they like to preserve the illusion of the setting's concrete existence as being outside of their own inputs as players.

Also, I put "illusionism" with an asterick because I am not using the term "illusionism" as per the Forge, but, rather, I was attempting to engage your desire for "natural language." This is to say, you prefer the illusion of pretending that this setting has existence outside of your input as a player. This is not about saying that your playstyle preference is impossible. I am not trying to rekindle that discussion, which would be better for elsewhere.
 

See, my problem.is that I don't see the conflict and struggle of most RPGs in terms of a sport, so I don't feel the need to force said conflicts to be "sporting". The obstacles are what they are, and the PCs have what they have to overcome them, including the judgement of their players at the helm. If that means they roll over the opposition, so be it. If that means they make an error and get themselves slaughtered (or nearly so), so be it.
I was using the sport analogy because that was what Lanefan used. It applies just as much to narrative challenge, hence my references to things like growth and changing who and what yoy are, which is mostly irrelevant to sporting.

And yes, sometimes just rolling over a challenge is great! Sometimes fleeing to fight another day is great!

But terminating the story is not great. It's actually really boring. Hence, don't make that one of the available failure states. Let there be real failure! Without it, the story is dull. But don't use "and thus nothing else happened forever" as a failure state, because then the story is dull too.

It's why "save the world" plots are so boring, unless used as vehicles for other, more interesting developments. Because no story actually worth reading will let that failure happen. Just deleting the world entirely is a narrative dead-end and deeply unsatisfying. But if we know the world will be saved, then dangling "the world is in danger!!1!one!" in the audience's face is pointless. Which means you must either move the excitement and uncertainty to secondary plotlines (e.g. romance subplots, "No, I am your father," training montage, etc.), or you must make the core plot require resolving some dilemma (trilemma, etc.) which seems to have no answer, and yet we as an audience know it must have one because the world is going to get saved in the end.

Random, irrevocable permadeath is fine, if you're cool with completely unsatisfying endings in 90% of cases. I'm not. I'm here for a cool story that even I as GM don't know where it will go or how it will end. (I may know some bits before the others do, but I don't know what those bits will mean until they do too.) So I don't make dull, pointless consequences—or "nonsequences," if you'll grant me the terrible wordplay. Only roll the dice if consequences for both success AND failure are interesting. Random, irrevocable permadeath is usually not an interesting consequence. Thus, I won't generally roll for it.

But that doesn't mean death isn't an option. It just means:
It won't be irrevocable (you can be raised, but what terrible cost might be paid to do so? What dark alliance might have to be made to secure your revival?), or
It won't be permanent (you'll come back...but what will your allies suffer in your absence? What goals might fail because your critical aid was missing?), or
It won't be random (either you as player accept the death and choose to roll with that as an interesting consequence along the way, or you decide this is a good stopping point for your participation in the game and thus stop playing.)

All of these are simply more interesting than "you failed to avoid being gutted by the kobold. You are now dead, and nothing you cared about matters to anyone else now. Roll up a new character. Hopefully this one lasts longer."
 

Before you get started, I am not trying to dissuade you from your gaming preferences and there is absolutely no need to get defensive. When I say this about illusionism:

I am referring to the bold:

Believe it or not, I am reaffirming your preference here, Micah, and that it's okay that you like what you like. I do believe that the setting still has "existence" outside of the PCs (as far as they are concerned) even if the GM and players are negotiating the content of the setting at the table. However, I understand that not everyone likes that because they like to preserve the illusion of the setting's concrete existence as being outside of their own inputs as players.

Also, I put "illusionism" with an asterick because I am not using the term "illusionism" as per the Forge, but, rather, I was attempting to engage your desire for "natural language." This is to say, you prefer the illusion of pretending that this setting has existence outside of your input as a player. This is not about saying that your playstyle preference is impossible. I am not trying to rekindle that discussion, which would be better for elsewhere.
Fair enough. I would say a GMs detailed campaign notes, let alone a published campaign setting, constitutes significantly less illusionism than a story made up by a player on the spot, but that's a preference issue.
 

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