D&D (2024) I like the new Warlock

[Remathilis]

So there is a "They butchered the Warlock" thread which is plenty active. I made the "I like the new Warlock" thread and...it's essentially been taken over by the same users who were driving the "They butchered the Warlock" thread.

Look, I get this isn't a plus thread and everyone is free to disagree. But it kinda seems like threadcrapping at this point, right?

I pointed out in one of the half-dozen warlock threads that people who are fine with the change aren't going on to repeatedly proclaim their satisfaction. It's negativity that requires constant pressure. The same thing happened with the druid's wild shape, and is also happening with weapon mastery. The sorcerer and barbarian threads are basically barren except for the people who argue how neither class should still exist. Basically, it's complaining that drives engagement.

 

[Parmandur]

I pointed out in one of the half-dozen warlock threads that people who are fine with the change aren't going on to repeatedly proclaim their satisfaction. It's negativity that requires constant pressure. The same thing happened with the druid's wild shape, and is also happening with weapon mastery. The sorcerer and barbarian threads are basically barren except for the people who argue how neither class should still exist. Basically, it's complaining that drives engagement.

Might be smart to have such a big gap before the survey starts. Hot takes will be cold in people's heads.

 

[Remathilis]

Just leaving this here, though I doubt it will change and minds

 

[The Myopic Sniper]

Just leaving this here, though I doubt it will change and minds

He's not wrong even with the clickbait title.

 

[Neonchameleon]

Just leaving this here, though I doubt it will change and minds

Having already watched it it's exactly what I'd expect from Treeantmonk; superficial and not looking at the package as a whole, just checking the parts. If you feed the Artificer into that analysis it comes out looking good because all the parts of it look pretty decent while ignoring the lack of synergies and ability to do better than the baseline. Good spell list, decent base abilities, some other stuff (items not invocations) all looked at piecewise rather than as a whole.

 

[tetrasodium]

Just leaving this here, though I doubt it will change and minds

It was a good video that nicely cut through a lot of the moving goalposts & cherry picked comparisons.

 

[Mirrorrorrim]

For the purposes of my question, let's assume that Pact Magic does get replaced. For Pact Magic lovers who are missing the potential for the upcast bomb, would this change to Mystic Arcanum work, to grant a spell slot rather than just a spell?

Mystic Arcanum Prerequisite: 3rd-level Warlock or Higher
Your explorations of the arcane have unlocked magic within you. You get an extra spell slot that has a level for which you qualify, as shown on the Mystic Arcanum table. Look for your Warlock level on the table to see the maximum level spell slot you may choose. Additionally, choose one spell from the Arcane spell list of that same level. That spell is always prepared for you, and you may cast it using any spell slots of an appropriate level.

Repeatable. You can take this invocation more than once. Each time you do so, the level of the spell slot and its accompanying spell must be of a different level from any other spell slot and spell you’ve chosen for this invocation.


Notes:
1. The Mystic Arcanum table would also add 2nd level slot as an option.
2. It's not a free casting, but it is a spell slot that you can use to upcast a bomb if you so wish. This would give up to 8 upcastable spell slots, rather than 8 spells. It also allows you to use lower level Arcanum spells in higher level spell slots.
3. It doesn't need the long rest rule because you still don't get more high level spell slots.

 

[Neonchameleon]

Band aids don't fix bullet holes. Your version of Mystic Arcana still leaves the warlock who invests heavily in buying invocations with Mystic Arcana as second rate wannabe full casters who get only a total of three non-mystic arcana invocations after second level - and that if and only if they buy back the Mystic Arcana when the slots catch up, and ones who don't as even more guided to spamming Eldritch Blast than before while still having a positively obscene amount of low level utility.

(For the record the reason Mystic Arcanum starts at fifth level is that you don't get an extra invocation at third even if you do at every other odd numbered level).

 

[Mirrorrorrim]

Band aids don't fix bullet holes. Your version of Mystic Arcana still leaves the warlock who invests heavily in buying invocations with Mystic Arcana as second rate wannabe full casters who get only a total of three non-mystic arcana invocations after second level - and that if and only if they buy back the Mystic Arcana when the slots catch up, and ones who don't as even more guided to spamming Eldritch Blast than before while still having a positively obscene amount of low level utility.

(For the record the reason Mystic Arcanum starts at fifth level is that you don't get an extra invocation at third even if you do at every other odd numbered level).

OK, what if Mystic Arcana is removed from the invocations, rather it replaces "Pact Magic" as a class ability, and is how you get the escalating number of spell slots that you can upcast into, for bigger booms that a half-caster wouldn't normally get at the same level.

The number of Invocations you get over 20 levels would then be refigured to scale better, balanced against the increased casting power.

Also, There is nothing wrong with adding a Mystic Arcana at Level 3 in this design. There is nothing saying you can't get a base-class ability at the same level you get your subclass abilities.

 

[Shardstone]

It is a nice way to go about it. I've done similar and it works nicely.

That said... its worth talking about the fighting styles. Like... its not worth taking Fighting Styles or the Weapon Mastery feats, as they don't raise your casting stat. That said? Adding in a Fighting Style as part of the Blade Pact cantrip? That could help bridge the gap in power between using EB and a blade. On the other hand, would we see FS other than Duelist or Defensive taken?

Like... the single best weapon for Pact Weapon options given all the restrictions (assuming no FS/WM, multiclassing or feats) is the trident (d8, thrown, versatile) - same base damage as longsword, plus ranged option. You can't take Heavy, Finesse and Light are meaningless, which realistically leaves Thrown, Reach and Versatile as proprieties you would want on a melee weapon, and it must be melee. With the TWF/Heavy/melee weapon restrictions in place, you can't realistically use the Archery, Protection (no shield), or Two Weapon Fighting Styles with a base warlock. That leaves Great Weapon Fighting, Defensive and Duelist as the only current options, and trident is still best weapon for all possible weapons currently available for these FS. GWF is kinda bad for trident (0.8 avg dmg boost). Duelist can't be used with Versatile it seems, so its effective +1 damage boost. Those are your options for fighting style: +1AC, +1dmg, +0.8dmg.

We could add Weapon Mastery, which would definitely make more than a few more meaningful weapon options. And Pally/Ranger seem like they're getting them. Now, I'm opposed to this on general principle - let the actual Warrior group keep something nice for themselves. Paladins and Rangers should not keep taking the things that make Fighters mechanically distinct; plus, if the paladin really wanted to deal more damage or Topple someone... they literally have smite spells that do that already. And if I'm opposed to Pally/Ranger, I'm going to oppose every other non-martial as well - spells for extra control are a thing after all. But lets put aside my personal objections and pretend that you get a Weapon Mastery for use with your pact blade automatically.

Mastery Properties include Cleave, Flex, Graze, Nick, Push, Sap, Slow, Topple and Vex. Now, given the Heavy, Light restrictions, that immediately eliminates Cleave, Graze and Nick from consideration. Push and Slow (and pull, currently not a WM option) are curiously already invocations you can put on E.B. Flex is really only good on someone with a shield (or maybe with TWFing feats? but not warlock) which the warlock doesn't get by default; given the rules, I'm not convinced that warlocks can't swap between using a trident two handed and one handed plus a focus at whim. That leaves Sap, Topple, and Vex as something -new- to add on.

Anyways, that effectively adds Flail/Morningstar (sap), Rapier (vex), whip (slow) or greatclub (push) as possible weapons if you really want those Masteries. Trident, once again showing its superior ability as a weapon, has Topple. I can't help but feel Topple is superior to Sap, Slow and Vex combined, though with a size restriction. Which makes me feel that the Trident is going to be the weapon of choice for pretty much every Pact Weapon, with a potential great club user for those that want a melee Repelling Blast.

If both the presence and absence of Fighting Styles and Weapon Masteries is pushing the Blade Pact towards the same weapon over and over... that defeats the purpose of adding FS and WM. Might as well just go for a straight damage boost in other ways that are more thematically appropriate.

In terms of other weapon feats... there's Charger, Great Weapon Master, Polearm Master, Sentinel, Sharpshooter, Shield Master, Skulker. It should be noted that all these increase Dex or Str, and not the mental stats that Pact Weapon uses, which lowers their appeal immensely. PAM and SS flat out require restricted weapons. GWM has one feature that you could use (cleave on crit, death), but not the attribute or other ability, which makes it really unappealing. Shield Master requires a feat or MC to get shield first; viable if Lightly Armored survives, but I'm doubtful. Even if you did, Shield Bash is Strength based, a dump stat for warlocks. Skulker... I can't see it being used by anyone without Cunning Action. Charger and Sentinel both work (if you don't mind the off-attribute). Charger is kind of nice when combined with greatclub's Push.

Its kind of ironic, in a way. Hexblade was a fix for Pact Blade, and used CHA to attack to fix some of the MAD issues. Now? We can run Hex/Armor of Agathys and any other spells that don't need CHA. Lifedrinker no longer needs CHA. Using a spellcasting stat means that we don't benefit from a large part of weapon mastery feats or cause or main stat to lag behind, and renders most weapon options meaningless.

We've come full circle.

One disagreement.

Adding Weapon Masteries makes Pact Blade more fun. I want to be able to topple, vex, sap, etc with my pact weapon. I don't care if the optimal choice is the same, I want to be able to do Weapon Mastery Stuff and then turn around and use Mystic Arcanum to firebolt someone.

At a certain point, flavor and style has to be considered, not just optimization!