D&D General Fighting Law and Order

[Oofta]

Oofta, is this you showing your respect for people who play RPGs differently from you, by calling the way they play artificial?

It's my opinion and how it feels to me. Sometimes not succeeding just means nothing happens. If I can't remember where my book is and as a result stub my toe makes it better for you, go for it.

 

[Oofta]

This is getting preposterous. If you all want to hide behind such rhetoric, just realize it isn't going to work out. I don't constantly, in fact I can NEVER REMEMBER EVEN ONCE telling someone that their definition of something was insulting or 'wrong'. I've stated that some definitions don't make that much sense and proposing different criteria for some things, but it was NEVER intended to be derogatory or insulting, and it was never a slur on anyone. So there's no need to start making THOSE comparisons!

I gave the standard definition for and reason that I find calling non-PbtA style games bad a few posts up.

Telling people that given the accepted usage of the word that they don't respect their players because we play D&D is an insult.

I was trying to explain by analogy. If someone tells me a term is offensive, even if I didn't realize it, I would stop using that word.

Are you saying people should just ignore the use of offensive language they've been told is offensive? When the term is completely, totally 100% unnecessary? When there are plenty of ways to state your opinion without using the term?

 

[pemerton]

It's my opinion and how it feels to me. Sometimes not succeeding just means nothing happens.

Much like my opinions and feeling about railroading!

If I can't remember where my book is and as a result stub my toe makes it better for you, go for it.

No doubt this is you taking people's interest in dramatic needs and appropriate consequences seriously, and treating that interest with respect.

 

[Aldarc]

I gave the standard definition for and reason that I find calling non-PbtA style games bad a few posts up.

Telling people that given the accepted usage of the word that they don't respect their players because we play D&D is an insult.

I was trying to explain by analogy. If someone tells me a term is offensive, even if I didn't realize it, I would stop using that word.

Are you saying people should just ignore the use of offensive language they've been told is offensive? When the term is completely, totally 100% unnecessary? When there are plenty of ways to state your opinion without using the term?

Sorry, but in no way, shape, or form is the N Word equivalent to "railroading." The fact that you are willing to type the word "railroading" but not the N Word is pretty indicative of that. So it was an egregiously offensive and highly inappropriate analogy.

 

[Oofta]

Much like my opinions and feeling about railroading!

No doubt this is you taking people's interest in dramatic needs and appropriate consequences seriously, and treating that interest with respect.

I take interest in my player's interests and their players goals and motivations. I work with people on their personal story if they want. I just don't want the player dictating the fiction of the world outside of their personal sphere of influence. I have no problem discussing character development offline and providing avenues for that ongoing character development. That doesn't mean the player gets to directly determine aspects of the character's fictional world. It's a different approach to gaming than what you want, neither is right or wrong.

But calling the style that virtually every D&D DM uses a railroad? When you've been told that it's a pejorative term? Given the definition and explanation of why most people consider it a bad thing? That's the problem. You're redefining an insult and throwing up your hands and saying "Hey man, why are you taking offense? Just because everyone else knows it's an insult, it's not how I mean it even though I've been told repeatedly it's an insult!"

 

[CreamCloud0]

It's the notion of "plot thread" that tells me I want another game.

I'm not interested in a game with pre-authored plot threads. That's why the sort of RPGing I enjoy has been called, by some of those who did important design work in relation to it, "story now". The now in that phrase is doing a lot of work. Plot threads are antithetical to now.

are you assuming a 'plot thread' is some sort of GM pre-authored sequence of events that is basically established from the moment/before you even decide to pull on a plot hook? it is nothing of the sort, the plot hook is an instigating idea and the thread is fluid and ever changing and is just the story and gameplay you create that follows on from you interacting with that initial idea until all consequences are resolved (or abandoned) by the players.
'the shopkeep never recieved their shipment of potions this week, the caravan was attacked' is a plot hook, a number of plot threads that result from that could be the players collecting herbs for the shopkeep, hunting down the bandits, getting employed as caravan guards, starting up their own delivery business, setting up a portal network, or whatever else happens from however the players decide to react to this hook all of which spin into their own stories that the players continue to shape through their own actions.

 

[Micah Sweet]

It’s still jargon that lies outside of natural language and usage for “railroad.” This suggests to me that you are cool with ivory tower jargon you already know and hate on jargon you don’t. That’s all.

I'm cool with ivory tower jargon everyone in the discussion can reasonably be expected to know, yes.

 

[Micah Sweet]

As I posted upthread, a module like White Plume Mountain or The Isle of Dread will basically break down if the players adopt dramatic needs for their PCs beyond "complete the adventure".

I mean, consider Aedhros the Dark Elf: that character has no reason to sail to a far island and fight whatever those brain-spiders are called (Rhagodesa?). So if I play that character, X1 doesn't even get off the ground.

What happens if, on his way to accomplish his personal goals, his ship wrecks on the Isle of Dread. After dealing with situation, he is rescued and resumes his original intent. Does he cease to be a character during his excursion through X1?

 

[Micah Sweet]

That's not playing a character's dramatic needs! It's playing a completely different game, about a character whose needs are (say) survival.

I mean, think of it this way: if a film was said to be all about an anti-hero who seeks vengeance for the death of his spouse, blaming his father in law, a high-ranking port official - but perhaps there is still a hint of goodness in this spiteful, bitter person, as when his mind wanders he still sings the Elven lays.

I turn up to watch that film, and it's actually a film about the character just described surviving on a monster-populated island.

The film has been misdescribed. It's not about what it was said to be about at all.

I think the above is a fairly straightforward point.

I think the issue here is that for us, an RPG is not a film that has to be about something. It is instead a depiction of a world and the activities of characters in it.

Let's use the TV series analogy. Many characters have long term goals in a series, but not every episode is about the character working to fulfill those goals. Sometimes, there's an episode where they end up on the Isle of Dread for a little while. I can't see how they cease to be a character during that period.

 

[Umbran]

That's not how it works. If call you the "n" word ..

Mod Note:

This is further back in the thread than we usually like to raise, but this bears mentioning...

Are you sure that's an analogy you want to make here? What do you feel the African American readers of this site might think about you likening "railroading" to that word?

Let's please keep this discussion in perspective, please and thanks.