Why do RPGs have rules?

A challenge to this is that at times what is said next must be down to a process that includes the inner state of participants*. The inner state of one participant is not known to another participant.

If you agree that general claim is right (at times what is said next must be down to a process that includes the inner state of participants) then what resources do you draw upon to address it?
Eh? I think you are overcomplicating things.

What is said next is influenced by the unknown inner state of the person saying it (I assume, you mean "people aren't telepaths"), yeah. I'm not sure what it has to do with anything.

To use Apocalypse World as a concrete example: there are rules on what moves MC can make. A hard move (one with significant consequences that can't be rectified easily) can only be made if a player rolled 6- or ignored clearly established danger.

If the MC is eligible to make a hard move, it doesn't matter where it comes from: from her mind, from her ass, her notes, the module, a random table, or from heavens above on a clay tablet. She can make that move.

If the MC is not eligible to make a hard move, it, again, doesn't matter where it comes from: from an erotic chatbot, cellular automata designed to simulate post-apocalyptic wasteland, or sms from Vincent Baker himself. She can't make that move.

Whether MC is eligible to make a move or not can be determined by what she says, with no reference to any inner state required.
 

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It might help to stub out communicated to the group / established at the table for known. It's like the Story Now version of No Paper After Seeing Rock. In order for something to constrain further play it must spoken clearly to the group. In real practice their will be confusion from time to time which is why a willingness to step back and reframe can be an important component of play.
 


So are you trying to tell me that ALL the stuff that happens in your campaign is entirely pre-established in a consistent lore ahead of time?
Or comes from stuff that has come from established lore. I run the Forgotten Realms and there is a LOT of pre-established lore and stuff that has been built on that lore. Stuff built on pre-established lore ultimately comes from and is consistent with that established lore.
That the proper descriptions of lightning and when and where it might hit is all defined, etc. etc. etc.? LUL.
This is just another attempt by you to paint something absurd as a requirement for simulations, and I reject it as much as I did the prior absurdities.

Lightning in my game isn't generally not fantasy lightning, so it needs no prior established fantasy setting realism dedicated to it the way @pemerton's lightning bolt would. Were I to say run a game in some outer plane where super storms with super powerful bolts of lightning exist, I would establish those as part of the setting lore for that area prior to ever using one.
 

Could GM author moves to establish the puzzle, perhaps fabricating clocks of some kind? That is, is the distinction found in the structuring of the breach in security puzzle?
How could that be workable? Either the GM authored a 'security breach' story, in which case the parameters of that narrative are going to be all of a piece and hang together, or else the players and GM together establish, via action declarations and outcomes etc., the concept and parameters of a security breach. A mix of the two isn't going to be viable because the GM's conception is going to 'go off the rails' as soon as a player declares something that breaks one of its hidden-from-the-players assumptions.

So, yes, you can do a BitD type of thing where someone, maybe the GM, introduces the bare IDEA of a 'security breach' (probably part of an info gathering move in BitD). Once the players think of an approach and some appropriate starting position is determined, then they make a move which establishes the success of "trick the sister into giving us the password" can happen, and a clock being established would certainly be a likely way for the GM to handle putting some pressure on the PCs "once this clock ticks down the sister is going to get suspicious and figure out something is up." It might simply be established as a basic aspect of the situation, as a response to a 'success with complication (4-5)' result, or as a devil's bargain condition. But this is more how BitD employs its tools to produce 'forward drive' in the story, creating tension, etc. In a PbtA type version of this there would be some sort of soft move announcing badness to come, which is pretty similar. You could certainly also use a clock (or a Skill Challenge) and that could be established even in a classic style of play.
So here I am not positing a rule whereby mechanics are or can be made silent. I'm envisioning the possibility of lacunae, i.e. cases not covered by mechanics. Where rules do not extend, what happens?
Well, as I have pointed out many times, PbtA games don't have this issue AT ALL, they rest upon a completely universalized process which handles any possible situation in the same core way (at least the ones I'm familiar with, I guess this is not utterly mandated by the design). So, thinking about BitD, it works within the paradigm of the structure of its given milieu. Obviously if the game went to something like "Doskvol is completely destroyed in a cataclysm, survive in the death lands beyond!" then its info gathering, downtime, score sort of core structure would basically fall apart. Not that its action mechanics and similar tech couldn't be applied, but this game, and TB2 as well, rely on a fairly known predictable cycle of action. I think we can see that, yes, some games can have holes in them, or limits they can't go beyond. I don't think that has a lot of significance beyond understanding that each game codes certain assumptions into it.
One way to address the possibility of lacunae is to say that there are none. A question still on my mind relates to the focus on action declarations. Simulationist rules often extend beyond action declarations to world processes. World processes could fall outside of feasible action declarations... so can I count on their being covered?
Covered by what? As I keep saying, something like a PbtA can be completely universal. Imagine Traveller truly played in a completely PbtA universalized way. "OK, I navigate the ship to the jump point and plot a course for the nearest world where I can refuel and trade." This move 'Navigate' triggers a generative process, as move-specific rules that determines where this nearest world is and its relevant features. I can build basically all of Traveller in this style! Everything! The Steward move can include rules for what sort of people try to buy tickets on your ship, are they hijackers, refugees, etc. I mean, as much as is desired of all this can be left to "GM decides this part" or whatever. Maybe if you navigate badly you could end up at a Class D port with no Lhyd, or frazzle your drive, or misjump, etc.

But note that this sort of rules doesn't have 'lacunae' of the sort you seem to be looking for. @pemerton's issue with planetary exploration/operations doesn't apply because outcomes are GENERALLY just "things go the PC's way" or "things basically go the PC's way, but there's a hitch", or "you get exactly what you want." His "does the ground car make it to the base, and is the resulting situation favorable or not" gets resolved. There's really no holes there, because these are very generalized sorts of outcomes. At most a game like this runs into a situation where "it sounds like move X is triggered, but the move-specific 'chose X, Y, or Z' rules don't quite make sense in this situation." I suspect that is always a bit of sub-optimal move design, but I don't see how introducing a non-move-based subsystem fixes that.
A possible example might be where in DW players want to know what the weather is like, and no one yet has access to Control Weather (7th level Cleric spell) or Weather Weaver (Druid advanced move) so they use Discern Realities or possibly Spout Lore? Discern Realities seems straightforward as they can go with "What is about to happen?" The situation taken to be where we are now (say, in these foothills). To give Weather Weaver meaning I would likely want to read "about" as implying "in the very near future" in parsing the rule text. If it's Spout Lore then it's accumulated knowledge amounting to something interesting and possibly useful (10+). Either way, it seems like GM has to decide what the weather is.
GM can decide, but the principles of the game actually decide what it means in play. This is how narrativist systems work. You want to insist on some simulative principles as some necessary core, but narrative games don't need that. They have a core, which is the actual agenda of the game in question. DW; it is raining because this increases tension and is described as, say, 'give them an opportunity with a cost' or whatever it works out to be. Its that simple. If the GM is following the RULES of the game, and in these games this stuff has rules-level force, then there isn't a need for any charts and tables and whatever process. You can still have them, and many narrative games do have additional 'auxiliary' mechanics for various reasons, but they fall at the 'fourth layer of the Onion'.
In a simulationist game there'd often be rules for deciding the weather (I'm thinking of the Balazaring Weather Table in Griffin Mountain), but DW lacks that. If they've succeeded on their checks (7+) it doesn't seem quite called for to treat it as an opportunity to introduce badness. How does GM decide what to say? (Or supposing they turn it back on the players, how does player decide what to say?)
Pure principles. 7+ on some check, things are favorable to the PC in question, but there's some complication or drawback. In the case of the weather, maybe its "the rain will hinder guard patrols, but the steep sides of the swales become hard to climb, and they can flood suddenly, making the terrain more difficult."
 

I recall (wrongly, apparently) reading elsewhere that the earlier game was DW, but the linked article asserts or at least strongly implies that it was SWN. I'm probably mixing up ST and BitD origins! OTOH SWN isn't fantasy... maybe WWN is intended (although that came after SWN so the timing might not fit.)

Anyway, to get the claims here straight, by your lights playing SWN is running a simulation? Implying I think that the SWN play must have been strongly simulationist? (SWN like WWN is "old-school inspired". I'm only familiar with the latter, though.)

Is there any better evidence that BitD had its world origins in SWN?
As broadly as you all define 'sim', you are awfully eager to discard that notion when it is not rhetorically favorable is my only real response. Given that I don't even subscribe to your categories of 'strongly' or 'weakly' simulationist I am not sure how I would even formulate any other response than what I just gave in that first sentence. Some sort of game was played in which, by your lights, SOMETHING was modeled, the magical apocalypse of a fantasy world, in which the actions of various characters, interacting with some sort of system, played a part. Frankly what system it was is utterly irrelevant to me. Honestly, this entire sim discussion has gotten ludicrous in the extreme, IMHO.
 

Subverting expectations and turning the game from political intrigues into a dungeon-crawl would not violate No Myth play. Drugging PCs is trickier, and, uhm... Depends.

In Dungeon World, if someone tries to Parley and rolls 6-, GM can make a move as hard as she likes, and it can be "reveal unwelcome truth": turns out, it was a trap! But then PCs are drugged because someone rolled 6-, not because the GM's notes say so. Whether catacombs were prepared in advance or invented on the spot is irrelevant.

Just saying "turns out it was a trap!" unprompted would be a violation of the rules of DW first and foremost, and feeling like this violation is justified by GM's notes that no one else at the table has seen would be a violation of No Myth.
You've repeatedly pointed to extreme bad faith DMing to say that player skill doesn't exist, why doesn't the above extreme bad faith DMing mean that No Myth doesn't exist?
 

A query on my mind was whether - once it is binding - that could result in future sessions of play becoming yes-myth.
If you mean, "can pre-established fiction in a ZM/LM paradigm become binding in such a way as to preclude the possibility of later actions being feasible." Yes, of course. Just like if the GM were to frame you into a jail cell you cannot walk out! I mean, there's no doubt that fiction binds, otherwise play cannot exist! Now, that being said, could a player in, say DW, declare their way out of a jail cell, say by using DR? Well, yes, sort of, and even if the cell was established in earlier play. I think, technically, you could get to a point where it is pretty well established that the Duke's jail cell is escape-proof, and that might thwart some possible GM statements in response to DR, but that's not putting a constraint on the PLAYER, only on the GM. He's now got to figure out how to give you your 10+ "interesting and useful" answers even in the face of any prior fiction! I would generally use a technique of 'zooming out' as a reliable way to do this. That is, DR isn't going to tell you the jail cell has a secret door in it that we already know logically cannot exist. However, it may well tell you that there's a guard who owes your family a favor and will smuggle a note out to your gang and bring back an answer. There's ALWAYS a way! At least nobody has yet in all my years found a situation where I couldn't come up with something to say next.
 

Or comes from stuff that has come from established lore. I run the Forgotten Realms and there is a LOT of pre-established lore and stuff that has been built on that lore. Stuff built on pre-established lore ultimately comes from and is consistent with that established lore.

This is just another attempt by you to paint something absurd as a requirement for simulations, and I reject it as much as I did the prior absurdities.

Lightning in my game isn't generally not fantasy lightning, so it needs no prior established fantasy setting realism dedicated to it the way @pemerton's lightning bolt would. Were I to say run a game in some outer plane where super storms with super powerful bolts of lightning exist, I would establish those as part of the setting lore for that area prior to ever using one.

As someone who’s not been engaging directly in this branch of the conversation, I just wanted to say that none of the above seems like a coherent argument at all. You’re saying that lightning in your campaign is a simulation because magic and @pemerton ’s isn’t because…I don’t even know.

I don’t know what point you’re trying to make at this point, but I think you should give it some more thought and stop trying to just counter folks. Maybe say something on the topic that’s not a direct response to someone else?
 

You've repeatedly pointed to extreme bad faith DMing to say that player skill doesn't exist, why doesn't the above extreme bad faith DMing mean that No Myth doesn't exist?
Because "bad faith DMing" (which, I assume, is anything than you don't like?) is impossible to distinguish from "good faith DMing".

Violation of No Myth, on the other hand, is immediately apparent to everyone at the table.
 

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